Pauline (00:41)

Hello and welcome back. I'm Pauline Walfisch. ⁓

Megan (00:45)

I'm Megan

Nelson.

Today we have Nicole Lara. She is a psychotherapist at Helping Hand Psychotherapy.

Nicole holds a degree in mental health counseling and brings a unique background to her practice, having spent a decade in the corporate world focusing on building high performing teams. After leaving the corporate sector to establish her own wellness company, she was inspired to pursue a career in mental health.

Nicole is a gifted speaker presenting at conferences

on topics like self-care and burnout Currently, she facilitates a dedicated therapy support group for fellow clinicians navigating career-related stress and overwhelm. Nicole, welcome.

Nicole Lara (01:28)

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Pauline (01:29)

Welcome, Nicole.

I'm so excited to have you here on our podcast and talking about this topic because as a woman myself who has spent some time in corporate health care, I have some lived experience of what that exactly is like. And I know your corporate background was not in health care, but I have a feeling that they're kind of similar. so tell us, you know, what got you

interested in that intersection between mental health and work-life balance? What was your

experience?

Nicole Lara (02:07)

Sure, yeah. my background was in corporate leadership in HR, so human resources, working a lot with leaders and their teams and building teams. I think the whole trajectory of my career and how I ended up being here, there's a common thread, which is really supporting women.

I entered that work world when I was very, very young and fresh out of college and not thinking a lot about future planning or the phases of life that women go through, which was a privilege at the time.

Pauline (02:44)

Sure, like we graduate

school and we're like, I can do any, I can do anything the boys can do.

Nicole Lara (02:49)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely. But I think, you know, in talking about what we're talking about today, right, like, really what I'm thinking or what's coming up for me is that the work world is designed for an ideal worker.

Right? This can be a large corporation, smaller corporations, Small companies, whatever it might be. But there's this unspoken truth that is there is an ideal worker. The ideal worker probably looks like someone who has very little responsibility outside of work.

can be accessible, right? Like we think about who's accessible, can I be in an office nine to five, right? Like this is way, way, way pre-COVID, right? And I was working in Manhattan. So, you you want workers who can be in the office super early and leave super late and not have to be home to cook dinner, tend to caretaking responsibilities, you know, and that's something that we don't talk

and we don't openly name.

Megan (03:49)

It's like

the idea of going above and beyond, That it's like the expectation has moved from nine to five is no longer like the bottom line.

Nicole Lara (03:52)

Yeah.

Absolutely.

Absolutely. And that looks really different too. Like it's very insidious and I think it's important that we name that

I have worked at companies that are startups and it's this concept that we talk about of the golden handcuffs. So what that means is we're not telling you that you need to be in an office nine to five, five days a week, but we're going to do everything we can to make sure that this office has everything that you want and

need so that you don't have to leave so that when you are here, maybe you're actually less inclined to want to leave. This looks like perks in the office and catered lunches and things on tap and get togethers and happy hours.

Megan (04:45)

Cheers!

Pauline (04:45)

client

who works in a corporate office in the city and she was telling about how they stock their lunch room with like all sorts of different meals and alcohol like in the the staff fridge.

Nicole Lara (05:01)

Yes, it's real.

Pauline (05:02)

We did not have that in corporate

Megan (05:04)

But I've been in buildings

where there's a very beautiful gym that could rival an Equinox or there is ⁓ Joe's Coffee in the lobby that's like part of the office, you know.

Pauline (05:15)

I think Google has nesting pods where you can take a nap.

Nicole Lara (05:19)

yes, I have heard that.

Megan (05:21)

I think probably we should probably do that. We should have that in the office.

Pauline (05:24)

Yeah, just because I like to nap. Yeah, so there's lots of different ways. I remember working in corporate health care and we had somebody come in to do a training and they said like, well, so what are your hours? When do you work? And we all were like, no, we work 24 seven. Like there is no off time. And the person who had flown in from some state in the Midwest was like, what?

And they asked, well, who gets the calls if there's a problem in the middle of the night? And we're like, no, it's us. We do.

Nicole Lara (05:57)

Yeah, absolutely. And think about the level of accessibility that requires of one individual.

to be maybe not per se on call 24-7, but to just be accessible, to know that, my boss might call me at seven o'clock when I'm trying to decompress from my day or I just got off a train or I'm trying to spend an hour of time with my kids before they have to get ready for bed, right? Like before it's bath time in bed. How do you say no to that?

Pauline (06:13)

Mm-hmm.

Nicole Lara (06:34)

you say no to right? Like the ideal worker probably doesn't.

Pauline (06:38)

I

remember not wanting to.

I remember, this is gonna date me, I got a blackberry and I was like so excited that I had reached like the level of prestige at this place that I got a blackberry. And I remember like looking at it and waiting for the little red light to blink to tell me I had a message and was like so excited that like somebody was looking for me and I could go answer the message on my blackberry. And I was young.

Nicole Lara (06:41)

Yeah.

Megan (06:47)

you

Pauline (07:06)

Right? But I had, like you said, I had no kids. I had didn't have a lot of responsibilities and all of my sense of value was wrapped up in like how good of an employee I could be.

Nicole Lara (07:23)

Absolutely.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the journey for me was really similar. And I think part of why I love talking about burnout and sustainable work practices rather. I did the same thing. I was 21. I started working for a Fortune 500. And I swear it was probably, it would have been more beneficial if I just slept in my

instead of commuting back and forth.

And there's something that is ingrained in us and wired in us that that's what we should be doing. That's what we need to do to grow. That's what we need to do to make more money, to get noticed, to get promoted.

Pauline (08:01)

Because all those things were true for me. Right? It wasn't a false belief. Like that is actually what would happen.

Nicole Lara (08:10)

Yeah, that is what happened for me.

Megan (08:14)

Well, I think also there's a benefit to that, like personally too, is that it feels good sometimes, right? It's not just like that's what I'm supposed to do. It's being rewarded and the reward feels good, even if it's a cost to the rest of your life.

Nicole Lara (08:32)

Absolutely. I can remember, I can remember very vividly. I had just gotten promoted and long story short, I was in a really great position externally and something was happening and occurring in the office and people were looking for me and I was needed and I was in hindsight having a panic attack. Like I was actually having a panic attack like behind closed doors in an office and people are looking for

Pauline (08:50)

needed.

Nicole Lara (08:59)

calling my name and these things they go unnoticed. mean that was a long time ago. I know things have changed. Some progress has been made. I work or have worked with a lot of leaders that have really put self-care, wellness as priority for their their teams. So I would like to think it has changed a bit. But yeah, it's like you said Megan, it's

feels good. And like you said, Pauline, I'm getting the desired outcome, right? I am growing, I am making more money and I'm doing things I like to do. It can't be bad, right?

Pauline (09:36)

The CEO knows my name.

Nicole Lara (09:38)

Yeah, I'll take

the panic attack behind closed doors. It's okay. I can breathe it out,

right? Like there's absolute truth to that. And this is something that people with or without children navigate, right? So when we think about being a woman in the workplace,

another added layer, right, another identity that kind of dictates and really does shift and change the perspective and what we what we take from the workplace and also what we

give.

Megan (10:07)

I saw a recent interview, I guess it was Michelle Obama's podcast,

her saying that we really did somewhat of a disservice to women entering the workforce when we said you can have it all, it was really this message that was supposed to be empowering. And then,

all of the sudden there's a lot of other things that come with that.

Nicole Lara (10:29)

Absolutely. I have like a visceral reaction to that. You can have it all. Women can have it all.

Because sometimes my inclination is like, don't really know that I want it all. So I think the flaw is not in thinking that we can't have it all, but the flaw is in thinking that we need to have it all, or we should want to have it all. ⁓

Pauline (10:52)

Mm-hmm.

Nicole Lara (10:53)

was very fortunate to be mentored by a lot of women who were working moms at a very early stage in my career. And one of the things that I have taken with me for decades at this point, it's not about work-life balance, it's about integration because your life is your life and your work is part of your life. to again, give us this notion that there should be a separate

separation and we should be able to balance it. It's just flawed. Like it's intrinsically flawed. And I think

what we see with a lot of women that we work with in this space, right? Like, well, I want to do everything. I...

I should want to do everything. Why can't I do everything? ⁓ But never stopping to think, like, do you actually want all of this? Like, what does it mean to you? Why is it important to you?

You know, what are we thinking about ourselves if that's what we don't want right? Because there's isolation in that. There's this.

Pauline (11:52)

What's wrong with

me?

Nicole Lara (11:53)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And there's isolation in being the one person in your office who actually leaves at five o'clock and doesn't pick up the phone afterwards, right? Maybe we don't talk about it. Maybe no one names that, but that's lonely.

Pauline (12:11)

Yeah, and I think people do talk about it, like...

I will admit that like not now because I'm older and wiser, but in my previous life, we all knew who that person was who was going to be out the door even though there was an emergency or even though there was still a problem, right? We all knew who that person was and everybody did say their name,

right?

It's not like maybe that didn't happen. Unfortunately, that is what happens.

Megan (12:42)

And

now we have social media. So it's like not only is that person leaving at 5 o'clock, you can get on someone's Instagram or whatever and be like, ⁓ she's making cookies tonight.

Nicole Lara (12:53)

Mm, the judgment. The judgment. Yeah,

Pauline (12:56)

Mm-hmm.

Nicole Lara (12:59)

absolutely.

Pauline (13:00)

I remember

the first person who said to me, we have, we had like a four o'clock meeting and they were like, I have a hard stop at.

430 and I'd never heard that term before and you can guess the gender of the person who said that but it was not it was not one of the young moms at the table, right? It was a confident man in a position of power and he was like I have a hard stop at 430. This meeting will end at 430. But the rest of us didn't get that opportunity to.

Nicole Lara (13:29)

Mm-hmm.

Pauline (13:33)

a hard stop, right? Eventually. But that was the first time that I was like, well, you know, I like that. I wonder if I could try that one day. But that was like something new.

Nicole Lara (13:42)

you

Yeah,

absolutely. I love a hard stop. And it's really interesting because, Pauline, you bring up something that is something that's so common, right, that I've witnessed and obviously I'm sure you have too. There is, I think for women especially, it's foreign to us that we can say no, that we can say,

just no and not have to explain why, right? Like I'm sure this individual that you're talking about didn't say, have a hard stop at 430 because I'm going to pick up my kids at school.

I find that for women,

there's this innate kind of need to justify, right? Like I have arts on before 30 because, right? And then there can be hesitation, To say it's something especially related to family, child rearing, et cetera.

Pauline (14:22)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Nicole Lara (14:36)

if a man were to say, I'm leaving early because I need to pick up my children, I think it would be really differently received.

Pauline (14:44)

That's so

sweet!

Megan (14:45)

Look at him! He's babysitting his kids. That's my favorite, when the dad is babysitting a kid. No!

Pauline (14:53)

Yeah, right,

but when I have to leave to pick up my kids, it's like, ⁓ of course.

Nicole Lara (14:57)

right.

Absolutely. So there's a double standard. I know we love the dads here. We support dads here. So I know dads go through their own fair share of work-life balance and integration struggles, right? But the reality is it's not a system that's designed with us in mind. It's not a system. mean, one of the most shocking things to me, and now like decades later, so it's more shocking. At the time, I didn't really

think about it. I was very young when I entered

workforce. was like right out of college so I was not thinking about family planning, insurance, all of the things you have to sign up for when you're like very young at work. So opting out of short-term disability. Why do I need that? That's like stupid. Who like right more money out of my paycheck? don't... Years later...

What I would see happen repeatedly with women in the workforce was similar situations. So women entering the company when they were in their early 20s, not thinking about family planning, not opting into all of these kind of choices, no short-term disability, not thinking of medical benefits, et cetera. Fast forward five, six years, they're still at the company. Now they're pregnant.

and they don't have short-term disability. And at the time I worked for a company that unfortunately did not have a maternity policy or a parental policy. So the discrimination that happens, right? So now what that means is that not only can you not opt into short-term disability because pregnancy is considered a pre-existing condition,

but now you have no maternity benefits.

Right. And now and like over the years we have New York paid family leave. So it's a little different. But what a lot of people don't understand and I love asking people this question.

Does your company have a parental policy? Do they have a returning policy? A lot of people will say, oh, yeah, like I, I get that. I get the 12 weeks, right. Depending upon how you deliver, I get the 12 weeks, I get the 16 weeks. And I'm like, no, but like, what's the actual policy? And they're like, oh, you know, like I get like 60 percent of my pay. I'm like, oh, so we're talking about like

Short-term disability that's also right supported with New York paid family leave. OK, that's not an actual maternity policy, right?

Like what that tells me when people say that to me is your company doesn't actually care or is not really doing anything around policy implementation to show and prove that they actually support working moms, right? that's correct. That's the bare minimum. Yes.

Megan (17:27)

Because in New York state, that's the bare minimum they have to do.

Nicole Lara (17:33)

And for a while it wasn't, right? So companies didn't do it and they didn't have to do it. Now they have to. And I've had conversations with people who are like, yeah, but they still get, why is it that I have to make the decision to, I mean, 60 % of your pay is a really, really big chunk of change. We're also talking about what about people who already.

having difficulty affording lifestyle living, right? Like everything is so expensive now, right? Like people live paycheck to paycheck. The idea of getting 60 % of your pay because you wanted to have a child or having a child, seems like punishment.

That's how it feels to me.

Megan (18:10)

And it's also not, I mean I haven't checked it in a long time, but it's also not 60 % of your pay, it's 60 % up into a cap. So that cap ends up being like, I don't know, 400 something dollars, yeah.

Nicole Lara (18:17)

Right, right, yes. Yes, yes. Yes, yes. And yes,

and there are lots of other like guardrails and like,

you know, yellow tape, like you have to take all of your vacation time, you have to take all of your sick time, so.

We're saying, you know, OK, not only did you just have a baby and go through this life changing experience, but also I hope you don't get sick. I hope your kid doesn't get sick. I hope you don't want to take a vacation right in the next year. Nothing about that feels supportive, at least to me.

Pauline (18:50)

And think, you know,

obviously we talk a lot about maternal health and women in the workplace, but I think this goes to all parents, right? Because if we look at the, if we zoom out and look at the whole thing, right? There's the invisible, we talk about this invisible load of motherhood, right? The kid is sick, who's going to pick them up from school? Okay, it's going to be, it's going to be the mom. Well, why is that? Right?

Nicole Lara (19:01)

support.

Pauline (19:17)

systemically, it is the mom and.

on dad's behalf, They don't, they're not expected to take off to take their kids to a doctor's appointment. So it is even harder for them to say, I have to leave early to pick up my kid from school, right? Because we expect that to happen for the women in the workforce, right? There's,

pros and, I mean, I was gonna say there's pros and cons, but like, it is what it is. It's not even pros and cons. Like, that is the expectation, that if a kid is sick, nine times out of 10, we expect mom to call them and pick up the kid from

Megan (19:48)

Yeah.

Pauline (19:59)

Can't tell you how many times I had to tell my kids school, like, no, do not listen, do not call me first. Like, call their father first.

Nicole Lara (20:08)

that.

Pauline (20:08)

Right?

They just expected that it was going to be me. And I was like, I cannot drop what I'm doing. when my kids were little, we worked opposite shifts. My husband was home during the day and he worked at night. And so we were able to do that. But for a lot of the people that we work with, their husbands have just as much difficulty getting away from those golden handcuffs.

They have just as much difficulty saying, like, I can't make that meeting or I need to cancel this meeting that's scheduled because my kid is

sick. And I think it holds women back because we do do it and the systems are set up that men also have a harder time being able to do it.

Nicole Lara (20:43)

Absolutely, yeah.

Right. Yeah, absolutely. mean, we're talking about a system, right? Well, multiple intersecting systems, right? But when we think about the work world in general, that's one system and one structure. And it was, we know who it was intrinsically designed by and who it was designed

And then you add all of these other intersecting identities like parents, like race, like socioeconomic status, like all of these different

and it makes it harder, like you're saying, right? Like it just makes it harder. I personally am really interested and excited about...

I'm hopeful that there will be more research around policy and how it's connected to postpartum depression, anxiety, not just for moms, but for

Like, as you know, some of my research is in paternal mental health. And one of the things that has struck me that has stood out in a lot of other European countries, parental care is normalized for

regardless of your gender. And the impact that that has on parent-infant bonding, parent mental health and wellness, family dynamics, right? Like to me, that feels like something that's so much more supported. mean, really when I think about our policies here, they feel antiquated, right? And it seems like...

I mean, I know a lot of us are not OK with it. But obviously, some of the people in power who are still responsible for designing some of these systems, it's not maybe at the forefront of their mind.

Megan (22:32)

Well, it's

right? So if it's one of the challenges is productivity has gone up like 50 % or something like that since the 1970s. But with that, we're not seeing that increase supporting the people who have already increased their productivity, right? And these are

Pauline (22:50)

Yeah. And

Nicole Lara (22:50)

Absolutely.

Pauline (22:52)

we have systems in place that make it harder, make it harder for the mom, make it harder for the employer. Like I sit here wearing two different hats, right? I know that when I pay for disability benefits for my employees, I pay significantly more for women than men. I know when I have to do an audit every year, they want to know.

How many women do you have working for you and how many men do you have working for you? And that's how they calculate the cost, right? these employers pay more to have female employees.

Nicole Lara (23:29)

talk about discriminatory. Because I don't know that if I'm an employer, I'm thinking, well, maybe I should hire more men. Right? It's cheaper. It's cheaper. Right? Like.

Pauline (23:37)

Yeah. It's cheaper.

And why is it cheaper? Well, disability, you know, hiring women of childbearing age, they have almost, know, especially ⁓ in a society that's built around having babies, right? They have a guaranteed disability coming up sometime, right? And so they're more likely to file a disability claim and then they're going to be out of work and then I have to hire somebody to replace them and

The money rolls out and yeah, so I mean, I'm not that employer, but there are certainly people that are going to be like.

Megan (24:08)

And yet if you

Pauline (24:12)

You know

Megan (24:13)

Yeah, like if you look at research, Like we're not, I don't have it in front of me. But when you do hire women, there are benefits to that. It's like efficiency, thinking outside of the box, nurturing a collective community, all of these different things, creativity. And yet it's such a shame that the bottom line comes into the equation.

Pauline (24:19)

Hell yeah there are!

Nicole Lara (24:33)

Yeah.

Yeah. And it's interesting to you because when we think of motherhood, like something that a lot of people intrinsically assume is that as a woman, when you have a child, you're like in this very feminine energy. And when I say feminine and masculine, I'm not talking about like gendered words. I'm talking about like from like a depth psychology perspective, right?

Pauline (24:54)

Yeah, that maternal instinct.

Nicole Lara (24:56)

Yeah, like

this yin and yang, like this inner balance of all of these energies that all of us, regardless of gender, strive to be in harmony and balance, right?

A lot of people think that when you have a baby, you're in this feminine energy, but the reality is motherhood actually requires a tremendous amount of masculine energy. It's constant output, right? At least in our society, in our culture, in our systems today.

It wasn't always that way when we lived in

societies and cultures, right? You could be in your feminine because you could receive, you have help of support, of community, of elders, right? We don't have that now, right? We don't even have maternity policies now.

Pauline (25:41)

And

if you had a baby during COVID, you really had nothing.

Megan (25:45)

You're by yourself.

Nicole Lara (25:46)

literally having a baby by yourself. Yeah.

Absolutely. And so what a lot of people, like Megan, what I was getting at was like, not of course we know hiring women is great for all sorts of reasons, right? But even newer moms, right? They're in this productive energy, Which we all need, But like this constant output of making decisions, being organized, like being attentive, being attuned, And like this forward movement. ⁓

like

type of energy. it's so exhausting, absolutely. But I think it's interesting because we still for some reason see like,

Pauline (26:17)

is also exhausting.

Nicole Lara (26:27)

motherhood, she's a new mom, right, all these things, but in reality,

such an aspect of new motherhood that the skills are completely transferable, right? Like they are the skills that you use in a working environment. That being said, there is a balance, but I think what we're also ultimately getting at, is like burnout, So what happens then when

I just had this baby and now it's 12 weeks,

which we know goes by in the blink of an eye, right? Like our client sells all the time. Like I can't believe I'm already going back to work, Yeah, yeah. And now I'm back and now let's just pretend like I didn't just like this grow this child for nine months, right? And then that's also just assuming that you have.

Megan (26:59)

can barely walk still, but going back.

Nicole Lara (27:13)

just a plain old like birth as intended, right? Which we know is also not true. What about people who go through traumatic birth experiences whose children or babies, need more care, more support? People whose partners don't have time to take, can't be there. People who don't have community close by.

People who don't have partners at all, right? Like as I'm talking and thinking about like people who choose to be

single parents or maybe they don't choose to be, but they are, right? So many different factors. And no, the system is not even designed for like the, I guess like the prototype, right? Like just like without any of the added layers. So yeah.

Pauline (27:59)

Yeah, you said it earlier, but like, yeah,

systems weren't designed for women or for parents because for many years women weren't in the workforce, right? Corporations did not start being created with women. We wiggled our way in and I am glad we did.

and that's where we belong, but that's not what was intended when it was set up.

Nicole Lara (28:25)

Yeah, yeah. And as we're seeing now, still right even with your example of paying more as an employer, we're not doing anything to incentivize employers to hire more women or support more women.

Pauline (28:38)

Yeah, no. Yeah, it's really it's it's always interesting to me to be like on both sides of the of the story, you know, and as a maternal as a perinatal practice, even when you're like, what's a maternity policy? like, I really need to make our policy better. Right. Well, when New York State came out with like, you know, every time they come out with laws.

Like there's, you know, there's new laws around time off for breastfeeding and there's time off for OB visits. That's great. Like I'm so excited about that as an advocate. And then as an employer, I'm I'm like, OK, how am I going to pay for that? Right. Like that is that is like we need to have these things in place. And.

We have to think about the whole system of like, how are we going to sustain that? Because, know,

we're a very small business, right? Like I figured out because this is something that's really important to me. But for the barbershop or, you know, a small business that's not so connected to maternal health, like they're getting that policy from New York State Department of Labor and being like, OK, yeah. And what am I supposed to do when they take off time?

Megan (29:32)

Thank

Pauline (29:51)

to go to their doctor's appointment. Like, who's going to pay for that?

Nicole Lara (29:54)

Great.

Yeah,

I think something that's coming up for me too, I've heard some people kind of argue this point, Back to like this concept of us being in a very individualistic society, right? It's not just employer, employee, but also like peer to peer support, So if we think about, if we think about what happens if someone's going out on maternity, right?

one of the places that I worked at we had like, I think it was 20 months full pay, parental leave for the next year you come back. You can take it at any time you could take it together. You can separate it at any point within like the baby's first year. And when you come back, you can do like transition like hybrid like you don't have to be fully in an office you can work right. So so that's like the opposite end, right?

Like I have, I've worked at companies that.

Megan (30:47)

I want to clarify,

you meant 20 weeks, not 20 months, right? I was like, wow. But still 20 weeks is, I'll take it. Yeah.

Nicole Lara (30:50)

20 weeks. Yes, I'm sorry. I say 20 months. 20. 20. 20. 20.

Pauline (30:54)

Yeah.

20 weeks is more than I got.

Nicole Lara (31:00)

Yeah,

20 weeks. So I have seen both ends of the spectrum. What I have also heard then come up a lot for companies that have really supportive policies like that. I've heard other workers, other employees who have to then maybe or feel like they're picking up the slack for people who are taking 20 weeks and then working hybrid or part time for up to a year after. And it really rubs

them the wrong way. I

can see both sides, but it also is part of like the larger systemic issue, right, of like us not being able to support

the collective, like what is happening collectively, what further benefits the company, right? If you're an employer, but also to like, I have been a manager myself, I have built teams and I mean, I want the people on my team to feel good, right? Like if you feel good, you're probably gonna do better work and there will be better output, right? So to me, it's like a no brainer, but

for a lot of people, like that's still a really like there's something that doesn't quite

click. And I think that's when we see a lot of what we're talking about.

Pauline (32:14)

Yeah.

So, you know, sitting here in your position today, learning in all of the things that you have learned, what is that one thing that like nobody told you that you really had to figure out on your own?

Nicole Lara (32:31)

Yeah, I think it's that it's not a personal problem. It's a systemic problem. Like, let's just name it. That's it. I said it.

Pauline (32:40)

Yeah, it's not you. I think these systems were not set up for women, for parents, for people to have a life outside of work.

Nicole Lara (32:50)

Absolutely. That's it.

Megan (32:52)

And hopefully we all can be part of the changing of the policies, the changing of perspective that maybe hopefully one day we do adopt more parental friendly legislation and policy.

Pauline (33:03)

Yeah.

And making sure that those legislations and policies have actual things in place to be able to support them from all over. So the burden is equally shared amongst the community and not individuals.

Nicole Lara (33:07)

absolutely. ⁓

But it helps it.

Absolutely. ⁓ I am hopeful. I am hopeful. I think as we see more women founded companies, more women in positions of power, more women who are moms themselves and can speak to this experience, it's then brought to the forefront. So I am hopeful that that's the direction that we're going.

Pauline (33:41)

Yeah, because we're still making babies. And we still want it all, or at least we think we do.

Nicole Lara (33:47)

You

We at least want to figure out if maybe we do or maybe we don't. Yeah. Exactly.

Pauline (33:56)

That's right. I want the opportunity to make the decision for myself.

Megan (33:56)

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, to explore and learn and create and figure out what we want our big, beautiful, messy lives to look like.

Pauline (34:07)

Have you seen my office? What do mean? My life's not messy. It's not me, it's the system.

Megan (34:09)

I wasn't calling you, messy

It's the

system. You need a better system, Pauline Nicole, thank you so much for being here with us today. So great.

Nicole Lara (34:19)

we're going to.

Thank you for having me.

Pauline (34:26)

Yeah, this was

a lot of fun. hope we'll have you back and maybe get some more inside information from HR.

Megan (34:33)

Maybe we'll talk about what happens after you already are experiencing burnout.

Pauline (34:38)

Yeah, or even

like what actual burnout looks like, because I think some people don't even realize it's happening.

Nicole Lara (34:45)

Yeah? We'll talk about it. More to come.

Pauline (34:47)

Yeah,

Megan (34:47)

More to

come.

Pauline (34:48)

more to come. Alright, it was pleasure. See you soon!

Nicole Lara (34:50)

Thank you.

Bye.