Pauline (00:02.634)

Hello and welcome. If you are returning, thank you for coming back. And if you're just finding us for the first time, we're glad you're here. I'm Pauline Walfisch here with my loyal co-host, Megan Nelson. Megan, go ahead and introduce us to our guest today.

Megan (00:22.809)

Hi, today we're so lucky to have Julia Zwerin here today. Julia is an LCSW in her own private practice and her work focuses on helping women understand and break unhealthy relationship patterns, especially the ones that keep them stuck in cycles of confusion, inconsistency, and emotional overwhelm. And...

This can be relationships in dating, partnerships, even friendships. So today she's here to share a perspective that connects relationship patterns, emotional health, and often the unspoken experiences women carry, whether that's in dating, motherhood, or navigating connection and identity shifts throughout the life cycle in different life stages. So Julia, thank you for being here.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (01:13.154)

Thank you so much for having me.

Megan (01:16.795)

So can you tell us a little bit about really how your work or why you started doing this work focusing on these relationship patterns and how it kind of moved towards focusing on women?

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (01:29.784)

Sure, well, you know, I kind of teach what I had to learn myself and guide people through what I had to learn myself. I was, you know, in my 20s and 30s in New York City dating and really struggling and recognizing that I would kind of go through these patterns of picking, for me, my pattern was unavailable men.

and men who, you know, weren't necessarily bad guys or bad to me. The relationships weren't necessarily toxic, but I was often left feeling very kind of consistently abandoned emotionally within the relationship and choosing men who were kind of,

you know, funny, larger than life, but could be sitting right next to me. I could be sitting on their lap and they would still feel like they were, you know, a thousand miles away. And there was often usually like what I call push and pull, which is they would sometimes pull me in if they started to feel me pull away a little bit. And then as I started to move forward again, they would start to pull away. And so I started to learn more about just my own

attachment style, meaning kind of how I learned to relate to people and recognize that I kind of vacillated between what we call an anxious attachment style, which is, I feel like I'm getting abandoned and also an avoidant attachment style. So again, that kind of pattern I was in, which was you move close to me, I'll move away, I move away, you move close. So this kind of back and forth. And I wanted to stop doing that. And I think

I was in my own therapy for a long time around it before I actually became a clinician.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (03:23.738)

And what I really found was, as much as I loved my therapist, she was so wonderful, we got to, we really got to, you know, the bottom of it, like, this is why you do the things you do. So I had a really clear understanding of why I just didn't know how to shift it. And so that's when, when I started, you know, my clinical practice, and then really started to get more into my niche and understanding of these, this is the kind of work I want to do. I want to be working with people who struggle in this way.

Is when I you know started to think beyond there were things that I had to change about myself in terms of how I was going out into the world how I was dating. Without getting too far into it just like dating at a much slower pace and being very clear about what my red flags were.

understanding what green flags were, understanding that if I got a certain feeling in my body on a date that was like a little too exciting, like a little, like I got a, I call it high. It's like I got a little too high off all of the hormones that were pumping through my body. That was usually a sign that this person is not probably the person for me. And maybe I would give it another shot, but I usually pretty quickly was able to see.

I can see where the push and pull is going to happen here. I can already see where the games are getting played. This is familiar and it means I need to move away from it. And so, yeah.

Pauline (04:49.364)

but listening to your body and how like you are physically reacting in those situations.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (04:55.086)

Yes. Absolutely. Yeah, I heard somebody once call it your internal pharmacy, which I loved. It's like, you know, the hormones that are released and understanding the difference between this is risky and I am probably going to get abandoned and that's what I'm drawn toward, you know, or

this feels really nice and safe. And I feel the right amount of excitement here that feels healthy for me and starting to learn the difference between those two and tripping along the way. There were definitely some wolf and sheep's clothing who I thought, this guy's really different. I'm picking right this time. then, Nope. And that's okay. Yeah.

Pauline (05:34.122)

Yeah. Why do people get attracted to that risky person that's probably going to leave you?

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (05:42.271)

Yeah, you know, a lot of it just has to do with how we grew up. And this isn't to say

it's your parents' fault, your parents were terrible, anything like that. But usually something happened at some point in those kind of primary years where we really learn about attachment and how to feel safe with people, whether it was with family, with caregiver, with a group of friends. It could have been something that was really traumatic for somebody with a group of friends where they were ostracized or all of a sudden made the outcast. And those early

wounds are, you know, they're, really, they kind of stick in our nervous system. And so when we recognize that, and we're kind of in a space with somebody who makes us feel that way, there's something that is kind of attractive about it, for lack of a better term, it's like, this is familiar, I know how to do this. And I think there's also

Pauline (06:27.187)

Yeah.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (06:49.026)

often a belief that if I can change this person who feels familiar, then I will be okay, right? I will heal that early attachment mood. Yes.

Megan (06:55.963)

There's like a fantasy, right? It's this fantasy and we're fed that not just, you know, some books, movies, TV shows.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (07:02.51)

100%.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (07:06.464)

Absolutely. Yeah, I often ask clients just for fun, because I think it's actually fun for anybody to think about it. The two of you can think about it too. What were the movies that taught you what love was supposed to look like or what relationship was supposed to look like? And when you think about those relationships,

Did they really seem healthy? Does that actually seem like something that could happen, right? So for me, I'm of the generation of like 16 candles and the breakfast club and exactly. And it's like.

Megan (07:36.682)

Can't buy me love, right? Yeah.

Pauline (07:39.611)

I was just thinking if I have to name movies, I'm going to really date myself.

Megan (07:43.16)

No!

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (07:43.247)

Yeah, but it's fun. even, yeah, somebody I have, older woman who is recently divorced and I asked her and she said an officer and a gentleman, which I don't know if anyone remembers that movie, but it was, there was an end that you're like, I want to see what's happening a week, two weeks after this because this guy's out of here. I know it, you know, but there's that Hollywood ending that we all kind of are sold and it's just not really realistic.

all the time. Yeah.

Pauline (08:14.727)

Yeah, but it, I understand what you're saying and we see it played out in our sessions and our personal lives all of the time. But the logical part of your brain wants to say like, that doesn't make sense. If something reminds me of something, someone or a situation in my life that was unpleasant, why wouldn't I run the other way? Why am I drawn to it?

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (08:36.11)

Yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah. Right. And that is that familiarity piece, right? It must, it must be okay. This is what it's supposed to feel like. And look, if you're somebody who grew up in a home where

you were very securely attached. Your caregivers really were able to give you everything you needed emotionally, for the most part, within reason. And there were some ruptures, but if there was a rupture or an argument that there was a repair after that, and so you learned how to do that, many people that we see, and many of us included, didn't.

always grow up in like the perfect household. It doesn't really exist. Most of us don't get out completely unscathed, even if we were in great families. And so I think, you know, that is the it's not an intellectual experience, unfortunately.

Pauline (09:33.181)

Mm-hmm.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (09:35.433)

What I really like to work on with women or people in general is that learning to listen to that intuition, know, really learning like Pauline, you had mentioned, you know, that feeling in your body really starting to listen to your gut. We don't call it a gut feeling for nothing. You know, our gut so often tells us, yes, this is right or no, this isn't.

And if we can start to really listen to our intuition and say, OK, I'm sensing this old familiar feeling. This is what I'm usually drawn to. I'm going to take a step back. I'm really going to check in with myself and see how I feel. I'm going to leave this date. I'm going to kind of go through my list of things. Was I present? Was I myself?

Was I what I call pretzeling, right? Am I pretzeling myself into being the person that I think this person wants me to be and I'm not actually showing up authentically? That can often be a sign for people is, I don't feel like I'm really going to be safe here. So I'm going to play into what I think this person wants. For women that often ends up in completely abandoning their own needs, their own wants.

Pauline (10:43.187)

Mm-hmm.

Megan (10:50.589)

you

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (10:52.012)

Right? I don't need anything. I'm just the easy girl. I'm laid back. You know, you work late all the time. That's OK. It doesn't matter. Just, you know, hit me up when you're available. Right? It's just they really and it's why we see, I think, so many young people getting into these. And we all did it as well in our own way. But situationships have become like this kind of.

thing that people do all the time where there's just there's no actual saying this is what I need, this is what I want, this is what I expect, and so often it is tied to because if I do they'll go away. If I actually take up any space here I will be abandoned and so really you know we're looking at like

Pauline (11:32.563)

Okay?

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (11:39.875)

this younger part of ourselves, the inner child, whatever we want to call it, there's a part of ourselves that feels like it needs protection. And the way we kind of help it to find protection is by doing whatever we can to make sure that person doesn't re-traumatize, know, re-wound the little person in our, in our psyche that we're taking care of. I hope that's not too clinical, but yeah. Okay. Great.

Megan (12:04.357)

Yeah, well yeah.

Pauline (12:06.961)

If it feels too clinical, if you're listening, go watch the movie Inside Out from Disney. We'll just give Disney a little plug right now. Yeah.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (12:10.816)

That's right. It'll explain it all. It's a perfect assignment. Yeah. Yeah.

Megan (12:14.928)

Yeah, so I see this happening when you were just talking about women turning or people turning themselves in pretzeling, right? And then, you know, I'll do I'll become whoever you need me to be in order to make this relationship work. And then I see a lot of times when women have done that and then become moms, all of a sudden, it's like, oh, no. Wait.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (12:24.429)

Yes.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (12:35.97)

Yes. Yes. Yes.

Megan (12:39.171)

I'm not willing to do that anymore. And yet, they don't necessarily know how not to do that anymore.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (12:41.847)

Right.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (12:48.18)

Exactly. And I love the way you put that. this is something that I personally ran into when I became a mom. And I have a four year old, so it wasn't that long ago. I'm an older mom. It took me a while to get there. And I went through a whole bunch of things that you'll probably talk about with other guests. Yeah, yeah. And we'll continue to. And so for me, like just...

Megan (13:08.583)

We do already. Yep. Yep.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (13:15.906)

For example, I had a child soon after the pandemic. I left Brooklyn, New York. I moved upstate. I did it with a lot of people who also moved to the area that I live in. All of a sudden, you have all these women who have become mothers for their first time, who've just come out of something that is, you know, was pretty traumatic for all.

collective was a collective trauma. And then we all moved to this new area. We're all isolated. We don't have any friends. We don't have community. We have new babies. We feel isolated and we need to get out there. And so we're almost looking at it as if when women go out to date and they're in that space of uh-oh.

I need it now. There's all this pressure. You know, there's this what I call it, what many people call, you may have heard scarcity mindset, right? There aren't enough, you know, I'm not going to find it. They're going to end. So the way I started to see it, that's right. That's right.

Megan (14:16.093)

everybody has their tribe already. Yeah.

Pauline (14:19.205)

is that this is maybe this is good enough, right? Or as good as I deserve.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (14:23.338)

Exactly. Well.

Yes, and I have equated that to what I call your freshman year of being a parent or your freshman year of mothering is, you know, those of us who went to college or those of us who just started a new school at some point, you get into the new school and you need to have friends. You need people to do things with. So what does that look like in college? You hang out with people that are in your dorm, your roommate.

The only thing you might have in common is we all just started school. Let's see what we have in common. And you know, four years later, you're in the quad or you're in the cafeteria and you see one of those people and you think, wow, remember when we hung out and the things we did? Lovely person, but I now have my group. I have my people. You know, I'm about to graduate and these are gonna be my friends for a long time.

that person no longer is. And so I think that we kind of do that as mothers as well. In the beginning, we're just understandably so desperate for connection and to talk about what we've just experienced, what our bodies are going through. And you want to be around people who can support you through that and who can understand you. So you kind of create a circle of friends based on the fact that you're all new moms. What the?

Pauline (15:44.487)

that proximity connection.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (15:46.759)

Exactly, exactly. And then what kind of I think tends to happen or what I've seen and also what I've experienced some of my clients kind of going through is recognizing that maybe some of those women break off into a different group because they do have more in common. They are more connected for whatever reason or, you know, there's a click or there sometimes is a mom, I have someone who went through this really recently, and it's been really painful for her. There's a mom who's just kind of

mean girl and kind of whipped up.

this group of women and there was gossip and there were all sorts of things happening and it was incredibly painful for her. And this is something that she went through when she was 13 and started a new school when she moved somewhere. So she's really experiencing all of that pain again. And she is somebody that I worked with when she was younger and she was dating. And we got to that place where she was dating in a very health, what I call a very healthy way, kind of taking steps and recognizing what

are my patterns? What are the things I need to have in place one day a week for the first few weeks, no more than an hour? We're not drinking, we're having coffee, or we're taking a walk. All the things she needed to do, I'm not suggesting everyone needs to do that, but that she needed to do to be able to kind of keep herself grounded.

that all goes out the window. You're not thinking about that when you're kind of hooking up with these new moms, right? Or hooking up with these new parents. And so it was very painful for her to realize, my goodness, I was completely drawn to this woman who is unavailable, who I felt judged by, who...

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (17:28.204)

didn't meet any of my needs, who would say she would text me for an outing, then wouldn't. And all of these old feelings came up for her. And I just thought, this is really interesting. And I experienced it myself, not to that extreme, but definitely, know, wanting, recognizing like, that seems like an interesting woman. I want to be a part of.

whoever she's hanging out with, you know, or, and this very kind of young adolescent part of myself was triggered. And I had to look very, you know, I had to look at that. Yeah. Yeah.

Pauline (18:02.313)

Yeah. We talk about in, in maternal health, this period of time that we call my presence, right? Which is like the parallel to adolescence, right? It's that identity shift and change and hormones and, you know, so it makes so much sense that like experiences.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (18:09.974)

Yes, absolutely. Yeah.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (18:17.198)

Yeah.

Yes.

Pauline (18:22.467)

socially as a new mom might trigger that adolescent like wanting to fit in and finding your peer group and being picked on or bullied or or left out break breakups.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (18:27.627)

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Megan (18:33.349)

and friend break up. no. That are devastating. Yeah.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (18:33.9)

Yeah, friend breakups that are excruciating, devastating for women. Yeah, for people in general, but like, yes. I, I, again, I've seen that happen. I've seen it. You know, there are these big rifts now that can happen on fake local Facebook groups or

Pauline (18:55.175)

Mmm.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (18:56.606)

WhatsApp chats where there's a whole bunch of moms and someone says something that's off color, who knows? And then they're kind of ostracized or they're wondering how to respond to something or do I respond to this now? Do I respond to it later? Do I want, know, there's just a lot of self doubt creeps in and yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Pauline (19:15.121)

Yeah. And then the mommy wars.

Megan (19:22.737)

You know, this reminded me of...

My sons are teenage, preteen right now, but I remember when my oldest was two and being on the playground in the city and there was a little rift with a mom who I hadn't met before because my son had the same scooter as her daughter and her daughter's was stolen. And so she thought maybe we had stolen the scooter, which we had not. But, you know, I was standing with friends and you know, she came over to yell at me for stealing her.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (19:29.614)

Mm-hmm.

Megan (19:56.116)

her the receipt. But when I went over to talk to her she said something about, you're standing over there with all of your chickadee friends. And I thought like, this is so interesting because she is looking at the fact that I have a group of female friends on the playground and this is her middle school. And I was like, I was like, you know what, I could see how you would feel that way. They're actually really

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (20:21.42)

Yeah.

Megan (20:25.999)

nice women, you know, I'm sorry about your scooter, yeah. And then she came over later and apologized, but it was like for her that was this very triggering moment that I was like...

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (20:28.108)

Yeah? Yeah.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (20:34.862)

That knee jerk, yes. Yeah. She's so lucky it was you that she said it to. Yeah, that you could recognize that. But yes, absolutely. I think people are triggered consistently. And we kind of wonder why, because I know, you know,

Megan (20:43.094)

I mean...

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (20:58.92)

So many of these women are just so high functioning in every way, in every part of their lives, right? And you get them into a mom situation and it doesn't matter if they are corporate lawyers, marketing executives, nurses. mean, most, together women in every part of their lives and the two places that they have struggled with have been

earlier in dating and then you know maybe finding partnership and hopefully it's healthy partnership and then seeing this you know them kind of get rattled by these friend groups and trying to just you know find their tribe and I think we all know that as we do get older because we're just we're not

really privy to all of the different social environments that we were when we were younger, whether it's we're working in an office, so many people aren't working in offices anymore. So we were either meeting friends by working in an office, we were meeting friends in college and grad school, we were meeting friends because we were out at bars more, I think people just.

Megan (22:09.533)

coffee shops yeah

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (22:11.598)

Yeah, whatever, I just aren't out as much anymore. They're on their phones more, right? There are all these reasons why we're just not in community as much as we used to be. And so people have to make a concerted effort to actually get out there and meet friends as adults. And it is like dating again. It really is. It's, you know, okay.

I know we have enough in common in that we both want to meet friends. So we're here on this coffee date because we met and we thought, okay, why don't we have coffee and see? And so that's the first date, you know, do we want a second date? Did it feel like we had enough to talk about in our first date that we want a second date? at what?

Pauline (22:54.216)

We don't talk about dating friends, right? Like even as you're talking, like I know what we're here talking about, but my brain is like, wait, she's talking about friends or she's talking about relationships, partnered relationships. But you're just talking about dating for friendship.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (22:59.342)

That's right. Yeah.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (23:08.854)

Yeah? Yeah?

Absolutely. Recently, my husband and I were at the park with our son and we met another couple, started talking to them, had a great conversation. Turns out we have a whole bunch of things in common. They had just moved here from across the country a few months ago. They asked if we wanted to hang out. We got in the car after this like hour and a half hangout and

And my husband said to me, oh my gosh, I think I have butterflies. He said, this is so great. They're so great. I think we could hang out with them. And we were cracking up, just like we are dating. Whether we're dating separately, or, and then there's the whole, if you are in partnership and a parent, it's do you vibe with them? Do I vibe with them? Do we both vibe with them? Do you just vibe with him and I don't vibe with her? There's all these other things that kind of, yeah.

Megan (23:50.631)

Mm.

Pauline (24:06.28)

Right. Or do we both really like one of the partners and the other one's okay?

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (24:08.968)

one of them. That's right, that happens too. That's right.

Megan (24:10.557)

Sometimes, but... And sometimes the kids don't get along and as a mom I'm like, I don't care. As long as I like the hair. Yeah.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (24:17.238)

I don't care. You're going to. You'll figure it out.

Pauline (24:17.576)

Yeah, or sometimes the kids do get along and the parents are like, not my people.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (24:23.67)

Yep, yep, exactly. That's right. That happens too. Absolutely. It's all of it. so, yes. So that all of these old feelings come up because I think we're just also, we're not in a head space to think this is actually how we need to be proceeding or it would benefit me. And look, I don't think every single...

Megan (24:25.008)

Yeah.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (24:47.626)

mom goes through this. know, some seamlessly move into a community and it's very easy or they've grown up with a bunch of people who are having children at the same time. This isn't a given. But I do feel that in this kind of day and age, because of like lack of community in general, that we're just not all in the same spaces all the time, just like we are right here. Yes.

Pauline (25:11.494)

Right. That prox going back to that proximity, like who is in your dorm? Who's in your workplace? And you're when my

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (25:17.634)

That's right. That's right. Yeah.

Pauline (25:21.112)

oldest was born, I was on the younger end of mom. So a lot of my friends didn't have kids. And so I didn't really know a lot of people who had kids. And I remember like being like, this is a few years ago, I won't date myself. Like, how do I meet other people who have kids my age? And everybody would say, wait till your kids go to school, then you'll meet the other parents. You'll meet them on the playground. And I remember waiting for like school to start.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (25:36.12)

You

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (25:41.059)

Yeah.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (25:46.924)

Yes.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (25:50.562)

Yeah.

Pauline (25:50.986)

But like, that's a long period of time.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (25:54.123)

It's a long time. Well, and what happened? Can I ask what happened? Did it was it helpful? Did you meet? Did you feel like you met your people when school started? No. Okay. Right.

Megan (25:54.557)

for you.

Pauline (26:03.738)

No, no, because I was a working mom. like I would drop off, pick up. Like I was not the mom hanging out on the playgrounds. So, you know, I eventually like found people and then my friends started to have kids. And but for a while, like we were the only ones with with kids. It was hard. And it was that was before dating apps for friends. So.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (26:10.954)

Yep, yes.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (26:20.824)

Yeah. Yeah.

Yep. Yeah, absolutely.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (26:32.288)

Yes, I know we haven't even touched on that, but that that's a thing now that.

Megan (26:36.649)

I learned about this and I brought it up in our group chat at work and I was like, does everyone know about this? And people were like, yeah, I met people on it, our friends did, I recommended to these people and I'm like, this works? It makes me so, I mean, I didn't even date my husband, I didn't even my husband online so I'm so beyond dating apps that I don't really understand how they work that well. But I'm like, my gosh, it's so exciting to me that

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (26:48.311)

Yeah.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (26:51.672)

Yeah.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (27:02.231)

Yep.

Megan (27:06.463)

It's something that moms, new moms, or anyone really, could miss to find friends. I love that.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (27:11.274)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. It is something that I know some of my younger clients, especially ones who had moved to the city kind of right after the pandemic and were looking, they dated people online. Friends. And some of them met friends. Some of them didn't. One of them created a group so people were meeting once a month and they were pulling other people in. And some of it was based on, you know,

different things, cultural identity or religious identity, you know, there were different ways that people were pulling in. But yeah, yeah.

Pauline (27:43.666)

Yeah.

Pauline (27:48.711)

So really like understanding that the relationship patterns that you have lived through both as a developing child, adolescent, young adult, starting your own romantic relationships, those patterns reappear with motherhood.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (28:11.182)

I don't want to say they do, but it's very possible that they can. I don't think it's an across the board, I think so. I wish I had known that I wish I had kind of been prepared for your dating life isn't over. You're going to do it again. And

Pauline (28:15.836)

They can.

Pauline (28:27.24)

gosh, I bet you there's a whole bunch of people that are listening that are like, no, I don't ever want to do that again.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (28:31.922)

Or like, please, no, do that again. Of course, of course, and I get it. And you know, I think it can bring up painful things. Most people who are kind of going through this process, I'm sure there are single mothers and single mothers by choice. I'm not suggesting that they're not, but that in itself, like there's a whole website called Single Mothers by Choice, and those women get together and they create partnership. And so,

You know, is definitely, I think, if I had kind of been more prepared for, friendship always seemed like a pretty easy thing for me personally. It was dating that was more challenging. Sure, I had my friendship breakups and heartbreaks along the way. I think most of us have experienced at least one of those, if not more. But, or...

feelings of being left out or why wasn't I invited to that? We've all kind of been through that. You know, when it comes to going through that as a mother, I was not as prepared for the feelings that were going to come up also because there's so much else that's going on. So when you're single, you

Even if you're really busy with work, can still find the space. You're focusing on yourself. You have all this space to really just focus on, what am I experiencing? Why am I experiencing it? Maybe you're in therapy. Maybe you're working with a coach. You're looking at this stuff and you have the space to really let it kind of marinate and.

and you can pick it apart and get clarity. Whereas when you're a parent, whether you're a new mom or you're even a few years into it, you're thinking about your kid a lot of the time and how you're going to get everything done. And a lot of times you're sleep deprived and maybe you're trying to have another child. There's a lot that can be going on and it's harder to kind of...

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (30:31.714)

I think, and in my experience, felt harder to kind of stay grounded in all of this stuff that I know. I mean, I'm a psychotherapist. I talk about this stuff all day long. But still, really, you know, I found myself kind of.

coming home from, whether it was like, you know, a holiday gathering with mothers or, you know, I, there was this monthly thing that's a bar holds up here, a wine bar where they do a mom's night out. And I went a few times and like the music was super loud. I don't do well with that. There was a lot of like very kind of understandably shallow, just like kind of surface conversation because

it's a loud space, what are people really gonna be talking about? And I just don't do well in those environments. And I would come home and kind of plop on the couch and think, I just need like a weighted blanket and some tea and I need to recover from that, because that felt like a lot. And I finally just said to my husband, I came home one time and I'm like, what am I doing to myself? Why am I going to this thing? But I realized that that younger part of me was like FOMO.

and people, this is where people are meeting and getting to know each other and like.

I even realized it was like where women were kind of showing off their style, you know, they didn't have their hair in a bun and like, you know, sweats and and burks at like at the park, they were like, oh, this is my night to go out. I'm doing my hair. I'm putting on some makeup. I'm wearing clothes. I'm letting people kind of know who I am and I'm in a fuller way. And I appreciated that and I wanted to be a part of it. But it was just too it was too much for me. It was like stimulation overload. Yeah. And so

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (32:16.574)

even coming home from that and feeling like I failed, can't do that like all the other moms can.

Megan (32:21.533)

I appreciate you saying that because I am a person that's pretty friendly and I've been lucky enough to find a mom tribe and I whenever I go to school events I am the girl standing in the corner and I

Pauline (32:28.315)

Yes, yes she is.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (32:30.194)

Yes.

Megan (32:41.805)

fine, like I'm not that uncomfortable, but I'm just, it's not my place, I don't feel like it's my place to make friends. And when I do know some people, I'll talk to them, of course, but I'm just sort of like, and I'm realizing you saying this, it's like, yeah, it's very overstimulating. There's a million kids running around. People are talking in very like simple conversations. What do you do? Who are your kids? These kinds of things, which, sorry, I find a little boring. And, and so it's like, yeah.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (32:49.229)

Mm-hmm.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (32:56.995)

Yeah.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (33:03.8)

Yeah.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (33:10.178)

We're therapists!

Megan (33:11.679)

I'm like, okay, you know. And so that makes a lot of sense to me. It's like why I can show up in other places and feel connected, but at those kind of events, I'm like, ugh.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (33:15.928)

Yeah.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (33:22.702)

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I want it. My dates. I want them to be about an hour long, maybe hour 15. I want it to be over coffee or tea or walk. And I want to really get to know someone in a real way. I want to have deeper conversations. I also want to be careful because my pattern and I see this a lot in my clients as well. And the people who come to work with me, the pattern is often well, let's mesh quickly.

because I don't do well with the in-between of like...

are we dating? Are we not dating? Like, what's going on? So, you know, I often say that my clients will go from, like, they want to go from first date to like Netflix and chill or whatever the equivalent. I don't know if there's a new equivalent of that, but like they just want to get straight to the like, we're in pajamas hanging out. They don't want that middle part because it's so uncomfortable for them to sit through. And so I see that as well when like kind of getting into these mom relationships. It's like, okay, don't mesh too quickly. You don't have to be best friends.

friends overnight, you don't have to share your, you know, kind of just like vomit up your entire life. Like, here's all my trauma. Here's all the things. Here's how I my husband. Here's, you know, it's just like, keep it lighter in the beginning. Even if it's like a one-on-one and it's in a calm environment, it's just like, let me kind of get to know who you are and then get to know you on a deeper level as we move into this. And I think relationally, that is kind of how

healthier and stronger dynamics evolve in terms of friendship. Does that does that make sense what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah.

Megan (35:03.077)

absolutely.

Pauline (35:03.793)

Yeah. I'm going to ask this about friendship, but I think it probably can relate to relationships also. Right. So like, how do you help people to sort of tease out like, I don't think this relationship is the right one. And how do I get myself out of it? And is there something wrong with me that I keep getting or I keep like starting to date the wrong one?

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (35:23.213)

Mm-hmm.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (35:31.935)

Of course, yeah, it's a great question. So when it comes to dating, again, it's so often that thing that is uncomfortably comfortable. This is familiar, I wanna change them. If I can change them, it means that I'm special. It means that I'm lovable. It means that they actually care and then I'll be okay.

and needing it from a person who is usually unavailable in the way you need them to be available. And that absolutely translates to friendships as well. Somebody said it really well to me. She said, I remember.

she was somebody who went to a school where there were sororities and she said, I remember rushing sororities and recognizing there was one that was kind of down to earth and felt like I belonged. But then there was the one that all the pretty popular girls belonged to. And even though I knew that wasn't the one for me, that's the one I tried the hardest to get into because I wanted them to accept me. you know,

think what you will about sororities or whatever, but it completely made sense to me. And she said, I feel like I'm doing that with the moms. She had moved to kind of a upscale neighborhood. And she said there was a group of moms who were like just kind of what she called queen bees. And she wanted a part of that, but she knew enough to know, I know I'm not gonna be comfortable there. I know I'm not gonna be able to show up fully as myself.

I know I'm going to be compromising what I really want, but I want to be a part of that. And so that's what we were working on is like, OK, well, let's talk to the part of you that wants to be a part of that and help her to kind of be OK not being a part of that and then being look starting to find the women who are going to be healthy in terms of relationship for you. And it can take time.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (37:41.494)

just like it can when you're dating. It doesn't mean it's going to happen immediately. Yeah. I mean, I'm...

Pauline (37:46.043)

And I can imagine it can go the other way too, right? That like, I think that sorority with all the pretty people would be really good for me. And I don't feel like I belong, so I'm going to choose the boring, safe sorority.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (38:01.57)

That's a great point, absolutely, yes, absolutely. It can definitely go that way. going to, I might settle, you know, cause this does feel safer, so I might settle. So it can go either way and in dating as well, you know, just.

this feels safe and comfortable, you know, this is Mr. Good Enough, Mrs. Good Enough, whatever it is, and I'm just going to do it and not listen to the parts of me that are saying this isn't a great idea because I feel safe enough and I don't want to be out there anymore, so I'm just going to do this. Sure. Yeah.

Megan (38:39.899)

Yeah.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (38:43.628)

Yeah, getting clarity on what it is you really want and also just how you want to feel. A lot of the work I do, I I mentioned that I do this coaching as well called Calling in the One and in Calling in the One, I know it's a corny title, but it's a really, it's a really great kind of process to go through. And it's one that I went through myself when I was before I met my husband. I really credit it with like actually manifesting my husband. Yeah.

Megan (39:10.759)

Julia, can you tell them a little bit about what calling in the one is?

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (39:14.88)

Sure, Calling in the One is a program that you can do on your own. It's a book or you can do it with a coach and the coach works with you kind of through the book, but we get a little deeper. And it's really looking at the patterns, why you've chosen, really helping you to understand why do you continue to choose these people.

really looking at yourself as the source of where you are. you know, rather than all men are this or all men are that, or this always happens to me, you know, it's like you really helping people to recognize that, you know, you have a lot of evidence, but let's, and I can understand why you would feel that way, but like, let's try on this other perspective. Who have you been calling in and how do we shift that? How do we help you look for what it is that you really want?

And some of that practice before you kind of go out into the world and start doing that is, what do I actually want to feel like? Like envisioning...

What does it feel like when I walk into the home and my husband or my partner is there cooking dinner for us and I feel secure? And what does my body feel like? And so you're almost training yourself to feel and think about all the ways that you want this to look.

He sweeps me off my feet and it's really like, what do you want it to look like if we break out of the fantasy and we look at realistically, what do I want partnership to look like? What are my must haves? What are my non-negotiables? What are my would be nice if so I can put some fantasy in there. It doesn't have to be, but it would be nice if, and really getting clear so that if you

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (41:05.55)

When you meet somebody, can cut and you're getting to know them, you can think about like intellectually, it sounds like this person.

for example, doesn't want to stay in this geographic area, and it's very important that I stay in this geographic area, you know, rather than like, well, it's okay, we'll figure it out, and maybe we'll fall in love, and then he'll want to stay and he won't leave, and I'm going to ignore the things he's told me, you know, just really being honest and listening to what people say to you, because they will usually tell you exactly who they are. It's pretty early. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Megan (41:40.455)

Pretty early.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (41:45.091)

they will tell you, they will let you know, oftentimes they will let you know what they're available for through if they're not saying it through their actions. And I want to say this too, because this is something that, you know, I'm sure you have both run into with your clients that I run into all the time with clients and with friends who are still dating or out there again dating is this fear of putting whether you're dating through an app or you're getting set up or whatever it is, this fear of saying exactly what you are looking for.

This fear of putting on your profile, am looking, if you are, I am looking for a long-term committed relationship. I want to have children. Putting it out there because, you know, they often say, but, you know, I might scare someone off. What? you talking, no, yes. You, exactly.

Megan (42:31.485)

Great, then that was the message.

Pauline (42:31.802)

then that was not the person that was meant to come to you anyway.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (42:36.142)

That's right. You want somebody who wants the things that you want. You're not going to be scaring anybody off who wants those same things. And I can tell you, I was just shy of 42 when I met my husband. And I had on my profile in New York City, I want to get married and I want to have children. And at 41 saying you want to have children,

It was really scary because I was like, they're all going to think about me and be like, she might not be able to have children. You what's that going to look like with her? And it just, but I put it out there because it's what I wanted. And I found the person and who wanted to get married and who, who wanted to have children. And we did have to go through IVF. We went through a lot to have a child, but we did. And it,

I wasn't tricking him. He knew exactly what he was getting into. We fell in love and it was a really, it's been a wonderful relationship. But I was very out there with what I wanted and I get it. I remember actually putting my age and what I wanted and posting it and my stomach falling out from underneath me. But people reached out to me.

They did, and it was okay. And those were the people who were actually available for what I wanted. And boy, did I, you know, just don't waste time on people who aren't there for what you are there for. You're not gonna scare anybody off. Yeah.

Pauline (44:10.233)

and getting in touch with what it is that you actually want.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (44:13.944)

Yes, and being honest about that and kind of being able, whether it's with your therapist or with a friend or actually being able to name it and doing that, kind of practicing it because it can be scary to say, is really what I want and I'm ready for this. And then, I mean, this is a whole other podcast, but like, what happens when you actually get what you want? Yeah.

Megan (44:38.875)

Yeah, you know, I always tell my clients, I'm like, that's the magic of the vision board is to clarify what you want so you can see it when it starts presenting itself. Right? You know.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (44:44.577)

Yes.

100 % and seeing how powerful manifestation is. mean, it is you say what you want. Be careful when you say what you want because you know, we are powerful people and if we put it out there, it usually at some point will come to us. Yeah.

Megan (45:05.853)

through being able to recognize what you want and when opportunities arise. Yeah.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (45:08.77)

That's right. That's right. That's right. Yeah. And taking the actions to get there. And sometimes that first action is just, okay, I'm saying it. This is what I want. I'm not sure exactly how I'm going to get there, but I'm ready to be honest about it and to, you know, not continue down the road of this pattern and move away from someone when they are, you know, looking like they're not the person and not respecting my boundaries and

You know, the first time you do that, remember the first time I did that when I was dating, will say, I call it intentional dating. I'm out there dating with intention. I know what I want. I know how I want to feel. And the first time I did that and told somebody after a few dates, I don't think this is going to work for whatever reason. And he was attractive and available in a lot of ways, but I just knew that.

I felt it and to say this has been lovely, you're great, but no, it was so empowering. It was like, I think it was probably one of the first times I'd ever done that to somebody who, you know, was kind of sparking that. Yeah.

Pauline (46:13.144)

otherwise seem like a good otherwise seem like except for the gut check seemed like a good

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (46:18.642)

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. But probably would have taken me on a wild ride eventually, you know, and to be able to step out of that and take myself out of harm's way and take care of myself that way just felt it was really empowering. And once you do that, it's a lot easier to, it's momentum. Yeah.

Megan (46:19.357)

Good on me. Yeah.

Pauline (46:40.932)

All right, well, it has been lovely having you here today for people listening. Let's just like name it right. The thing that no one told you. Right.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (46:44.684)

Thank you so much.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (46:53.044)

Mm-hmm is like I said before is that I would continue to date once I became a mom and that the relational issues that I had thought I had kind of nipped when I met my partner and I thought I finally did it

They didn't go away. They were just kind of lying dormant. I had enough wherewithal to keep them in check when I was dating. But again, you become a mom and there's so much going on and they it's like a whack-a-mole game. It kind of like just popped up in this other place and I was like, I didn't know.

Megan (47:32.11)

You

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (47:36.138)

all of those, you know, insecurities were still kind of lurking somewhere in in my in my internal organs. Yeah, yeah. So just to be aware. They're not over. They're not over. And that's okay. That's right. That's right. But relation. Relationship doesn't end with partnership with a romantic partnership relation. relational experiences continue and it's okay to

Pauline (47:41.456)

Yeah.

And your dating days are not over. You're going to be dating for the rest of your life. And it is okay.

Megan (47:46.961)

Bye.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (48:03.062)

you know, to kind of trip and skin your knee again, and then have to have to look at this stuff again. Yeah, yeah.

Pauline (48:07.845)

Yeah.

Megan (48:11.079)

So Julia, for people, are licensed in New York State. Is that right? you accepting?

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (48:15.884)

licensed in New York state and in Florida, can, and coaching, can work with anyone anywhere in the world. Yeah.

Megan (48:23.739)

And what is your website? We'll provide a link for it, but if you'd like to... Okay.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (48:26.826)

Okay, it is a long one. is Julia. It's Julia Wormanswarentherapy.com. That was a mistake. And my, have an Instagram handle, which is at the dating therapist. Yeah.

Megan (48:43.165)

Great. Well, maybe we'll have you on, sorry. Maybe we'll have you on.

Pauline (48:44.986)

We'll be able, we'll be shoulda... Yeah, we'll put all of that in the... We will put all of that in the comments.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (48:49.806)

Great. Wonderful.

Megan (48:53.99)

And maybe we'll have you back to talk about dating after divorce if you would like to. Okay, great. All right, thank you so much. It's so nice to see you. Thank you.

Julia Zwerin, LCSW (48:58.013)

I would love to. Yeah, sure.

Thank you both so much. I loved it. Thank you. Okay, bye bye.

Pauline (49:03.462)

It was great having you. Thanks.