Pauline (00:41)

Hello and welcome back. I'm Pauline Walfisch and I am here with my faithful co-host, Megan Nelson. Megan, take us away and introduce us to our new guest.

Megan (00:49)

Today we're

Hi everyone, today we're here with Jillian Martino. She is a New York licensed creative arts therapist. She uses clinical skills, creativity, and art to support individuals navigating trauma, shame, self-worth, feeling stuck in patterns that no longer serve them. Jillian is an EMDR trained therapist who frequently uses parts work with clients. She has experience working with individuals with substance use disorders, severe mental

mental illnesses, veterans experiencing PTSD, and unhoused individuals. Today, Jillian is joining us to talk about what it's like making a decision to become a parent while working on healing your inner child. Welcome, Jillian.

Jillian Martino (01:36)

Hi. ⁓

Megan (01:37)

Thank you for joining us.

Jillian Martino (01:38)

Yeah, thanks for having me.

Pauline (01:40)

Jillian, first I want to say how much fun it's been getting to work alongside of you and having that creative energy coming to our team in being able to look at things in a different way than some of us are used to looking at. So I'm excited to have you here today and we get to share some of the insights and knowledge that you have with the people out there who might be sitting home deciding

whether they should be a parent or not, and whether they want to be a parent or not.

We live in a very pro-natal society where it's just assumed that everybody is going to have children and that's not always the case for people. Sometimes by choice, sometimes not by choice. But I know that you are really excited about the work of the inner child and how that comes into the decision to be a parent. So I think this is gonna be a really great episode and I'm excited. So I guess I'm

Jillian Martino (02:26)

Mm-hmm.

Pauline (02:39)

I wanted to start off by maybe asking you to explain to people, what does that mean in inner child? Because I think people have different ideas about what that means, or maybe some people have never heard of it.

Jillian Martino (02:53)

Sure. Yeah, I mean, I think, inner child work is kind of what it sounds like, right? Like, with parts work or IFS, which is a type of trauma therapy. The belief is that we have all these different parts of self think inside out like the Disney movie that play different roles in our life. And our inner child is really our youngest version of self, right? So

depending on what your childhood might look like, your inner child might need more support. And even if we had a glowing childhood, right, our inner child might just need support and being able to be silly and be free and be open, because those are things that sometimes we lose in our adulthood, but it's still so important to nurture, right? And something children definitely bring out in us. So yeah, working with the inner child can be

such an important thing in deciding to become a parent because our children trigger our own inner child.

Pauline (03:49)

Mm-hmm,

for, I mean, yes, for sure. And it's not something we're trying to get rid of, right? Like, we're not trying to grow them up so that they're not a child anymore. We're like, meeting them where they are, or...

Jillian Martino (04:03)

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, with parts work, it's a really big belief that like, even our negative parts, right, have value and are a part of who we are, right. And maybe we need some adjustments, because they no longer fit into our life the way that they used to, right. But the essence of who they are and what they are doing, what they're protecting us from, or what they value is part of us.

So it's really just shaping and shifting that to better fit the time in your life now. Right? All of you.

Megan (04:33)

How might negative

parts show up? What does that look like?

Jillian Martino (04:37)

Yeah,

I mean, I think it's different for everybody. I think it can show up in stuff like self sabotaging behavior, it can show up in the way that we argue, right? Whether we're really argumentative, whether we're even the opposite, right? We shut down in our arguments, or even to like maybe behaviors that in theory are like a little more destructive, right? Whether it's like addiction, or, you know, something like gambling or like

hypersexuality, right? Like there's so many different ways it can show up. And I think it's different for everybody. It also too can show up in even like over intellectualizing stuff, right? Like avoiding emotion altogether, which sometimes we think of as a positive thing, but definitely could be a negative if we're avoiding our emotions entirely.

Pauline (05:21)

Yeah. And the Dick Schwartz, who's like the founder of IFS, would like probably object to us even saying negative parts, right? Because there are no bad parts. They all serve a purpose. They all like are part of who we are and have purpose and reason and are trying to help us or protect us, even when it doesn't, it's maybe not always the healthiest way to help us or protect us. Right?

Megan (05:45)

Well, I think we have to describe what even IFS stands for. Right? ⁓ People don't know IFS. What is IFS?

Pauline (05:49)

⁓ thank you for keeping us honest, Megan.

Jillian Martino (05:53)

Yeah.

Pauline (05:56)

Yeah.

Jillian Martino (05:57)

Yeah, I mean, it stands for internal family systems, right? So think of it like that. Like your parts are literally a little internal family, right? And we want them to feel whole and we want them to feel like they are working together. And sometimes in life, they do go in all these different directions. I like to explain it like a minivan, you know, on like a long road trip.

And we're all fighting in the car. And the hope is to have a really calm car by the end of it.

Pauline (06:21)

Yeah.

Megan (06:26)

But at some point someone might have to get out and throw up or somebody might have an argument.

Pauline (06:30)

Yeah.

Jillian Martino (06:31)

Yeah.

Pauline (06:32)

And using

that analogy, often say like, but you wouldn't give the keys to drive the minivan to the two year old in the backseat, right? Like you would still want an adult heart to be actually driving the car. And so that kind of brings us to like that decision about choosing to become a parent, right? Who is making that decision? So is it the inner child who decides to become

Jillian Martino (06:42)

Yeah.

Pauline (07:01)

or not become a parent. I'm fascinated to kind of dive into that with Jillian.

Jillian Martino (07:07)

Yeah, yeah, I mean, so I, I kind of, again, let's use that money band reference, because I think it's pretty digestible for folks. I always think, right, like, I have maybe my adult self or like the most whole version of self, you know, the self that I find myself in the most in my head, it's a therapist, you know, it's very intellectual, and it thinks things through. And I like that part in the driver's seat, sometimes it loses its driving.

seat moments when things get heated, you know? But in talking about like integrating all of the parts of self, I like to think of it like they're my co-pilot, right? And all of those parts are really important. And like, sometimes I do need to hear their suggestions on directions and so on. And when I look at it that way, that is kind of how I make that choice and decision, right? This really like rounded version of me is the deciding factor, sure.

but it weighs all of the options of the other parts and what that might look like, Maybe parts of me that hold pain or parts of me that hold anger or parts of me that hold fear, And all of those things are valid and need to be heard and thought about and weighed in making that decision so that I don't feel misaligned or have built in resentment later on in that choice.

Pauline (08:19)

Yeah. I think an example that comes to mind where I see parents often responding like the child driving the car, Even when you think about a parental figure setting rules or a pediatrician giving you a needle, right?

As a kid, that might be a terrifying thing to go to the doctor and have to get a shot. And now you're a parent. So are you taking your kid to the pediatrician with your parent self, the calm, caring, compassionate self? Or is your own inner child who's so afraid of going to the doctor and getting a shot, the one taking,

the steering wheel in the pediatrician's office, right? So would that be like an inner child moment in parenting?

Jillian Martino (09:09)

Yeah, I mean, I think that I think it's really easy to see yourself within our children. And I think that's why they can be triggering, right. And, you know, there's also studies, right, that will show like people who have repressed traumas and things sometimes too, when their child is at the age in which they are experiencing the trauma, they get re triggered, right, and everything kind of comes back. And that is because our kids are giant little mirrors for us.

which is a great thing. And also a really scary thing as a parent, right? So yeah, I think there are so many moments and I don't think it's just your inner child, right? I think there's also parts of us that are like, you know, if we had an angry, angry like teenage version of us who likes to rebel, right? And when our kid says no to us on something that we know is good for them, right? Is that other version of you there that's like, you're not allowed to say no, like, you know?

Megan (09:55)

Yeah, reactivity. Yeah.

Pauline (09:59)

I've been waiting my whole life

to say, I'm the parent. I'm in charge here. ⁓

Megan (10:03)

Right.

Jillian Martino (10:03)

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

⁓ So yeah, I mean, I think there's so many parts at play in being a parent. And I think a lot of parents talk about that, right? I think that's also too, especially in the work that we do, we see so many parents who are nervous about like, and I hear it at least from my clients, right? I'm so scared to f up my kids, right? Like, we all have that. And I think that's like why people seek doing this work. And I don't know if there is a way to not.

like mess up at some point. think that's human nature, right? ⁓ But I think it really is a.

Pauline (10:35)

Yes, if you're one of my clients,

you've heard me say many times, like, let's just accept that you are going to somehow mess up your child's and that is just part of parenting.

Jillian Martino (10:44)

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, I tell people all the time, just the way that I talk about it in couples, right? It's not so much about the perfection of it, right? It's more about like, can you show up and have that resolve, right? And for the parents that are really struggling, I also remind them that to create secure attachment, which if we don't know is the attachment style that we all are aiming for, you only need 30%. Okay, so 30 % is really reachable.

Megan (10:57)

care.

Pauline (11:11)

That means that you get to mess up 70 % of the time and 30 % of the time you're like nailing it.

Jillian Martino (11:15)

Yeah.

Megan (11:18)

You know,

I hadn't heard that statistic. And even though my kids are like well into adolescence and teenager, I'm going to still hold on to that. So I think sometimes people who are

Jillian Martino (11:19)

Nailing it.

Yeah, only 30 % that's really reachable.

Megan (11:33)

maybe approaching the age where they want to or need to start thinking about becoming a parent, sometimes their past is really has a strong, like almost like an anchor to them. And sometimes I hear people say like, I want to become a parent because I didn't have the past or the childhood experience that I want to be able to give my kids. Or sometimes people say, I want to avoid being a parent because I don't feel like I have the tools that I didn't have, you know, the right

experience, I didn't have the parents that really taught me how to become a parent. And so what you're kind of saying here is that we don't have to let that part necessarily take the wheel, That it's like, yeah, those can be considerations, but if you don't want them to be, that maybe they don't need to be in the driver's seat.

Jillian Martino (12:25)

Yeah, I mean, I think even in my own life, right, I've had both of those on both ends where there was a part of me that was like, oh my God, I never want to do this because what if I mess up my kid and also the opposite end of like, oh my God, I totally want to do this because I think I'd be great at it. And like, I think I'd do the opposite and nurture a child in a way that maybe I want it to, right. But I think that there are so many things to consider. I think also like, you know, there's also like financial and this and that and whatever.

right? And I think it is such a personal decision. And I think you are the only one who can dictate if you want to do this or not, And I do think our past plays a role in it, But I don't think that it has to be the only guiding force into the choices that we make. And not just in being a parent, but in our life, Our past can color things in our life, but it doesn't have to be

deciding factor on anything, like the second we do that we lose our choice, you know? We give our power back to the things that we've experienced.

Pauline (13:22)

Mm-hmm.

Megan (13:25)

What would you say to someone when someone is really struggling with that decision? What's been helpful?

Jillian Martino (13:32)

Readiness, people will say all the time, like, I want to feel ready. readiness is not a feeling. It is a decision. It is a choice. And you're actually never going to feel that because it's not a feeling. There are things for everybody.

that might make them feel more ready or more prepared for something. And we can totally think and consider what that is. And it's nice to have that skeleton, right? But at the end of the day, it is a choice. And I also tell people, at least for me, how I get to readiness is I get comfortable with the idea that, there's a possibility that I could totally mess up. And there is also a possibility that I can do great. And I put my faith back into myself.

and I know the work that I've done, and I know that I can take accountability when things fall apart. And that in itself means that even if I experience something that I consider a failure, right, then I have the ability to also learn and grow from that and be a better version of myself. And then that in itself means it could never be a failure, So.

in a roundabout way. You'll never be ready, and that's okay. But there are things that might help you feel ready, and it's okay to consider what those things are. And then at one point, you just got to jump in. All good things start with a leap of faith.

Pauline (14:43)

Love that. So how do you know if it's your inner child taking that leap? Like they're just jumping off the top step in the stoop.

Jillian Martino (14:52)

Yeah, I mean, I think it's like really sitting with yourself, One of the big things that they talk about in parts work and any type of like therapy or work that we're doing with ourself is really like needing to self reflect and look at ourselves, And taking that time, Another thing I tell people all the time is that like, I have so many sayings, guys. Another thing that I tell people is, you can't see yourself in boiling water. So if you're feeling frantic, you're probably so far outside of yourself,

Megan (15:10)

Thanks

Jillian Martino (15:17)

and you are not making a decision from like a place where you are really sitting in that decision. You're making it out of fear, out of anxiety, out of whatever is coming up for you in that moment. The best thing we can do is ground back into ourself, whether that be through breathing, journaling, whatever your personal thing is, or talking to your friend, Or your therapist. And really like ask yourself, like what...

about this feels good? What about this is my scared of what can help me feel more comfortable? And are there some things that I'm never going to feel perfectly comfortable on and I just have to be comfortable with that too. I think it's it's self reflection. Yeah, I think it's just self reflection. And I think that's how you know. And I think with parts work, sometimes yes, there is like, you can definitely feel a difference. And sometimes it's all kind of blended together. Especially once you get to that more whole part.

Megan (15:51)

okay with not being okay.

Jillian Martino (16:07)

It does start to blend all together. But I think it's about really just like honoring whatever shows up, even the parts that you know, when we say something in our head that we're like, I would not share that with the public, That's okay. You don't have to. But it's okay to acknowledge that that also exists.

Pauline (16:22)

Yes, you're on our podcast

and then you have to share it with the public, right?

Megan (16:25)

Hahaha

Jillian Martino (16:26)

Sure, but I mean, like, I'm thinking about, like, for an example, you know, there's so many societal, structures on, what a good parent should be. And I think especially women tend to deal with this a lot. Not that I don't think men deal with it too, but I think women do have, a really hard structure of, like, what we should be as a parent, you know? And I think there are things, like, for an example, like, I don't want a kid because, you know,

they're hard, or I'm not, I like want to be selfish and I want to travel the world and do whatever I want. And I don't want to have to think of another kid, in theory, someone might be like, that's such an awful thing to say. But it's also okay if that's your truth. And it's okay to also honor that, right? And I think that's how you get to this decision. You like don't fear away from the things that you think would be shameful to say out loud. And you honor all of it.

Megan (17:12)

think that's so important because, you know, I'm just thinking of people that I talk to that...

are trying to figure out if they want to have kids or not. the thing that comes up is like, don't know if this is the should have a kid. They're like, I don't know if that's me or if that's society. And some of our work is just figuring that out. Is this a me thing or is this society telling me I should have a kid? And it's so confusing when, look, like,

Jillian Martino (17:31)

Hmm?

Yeah.

Megan (17:40)

You know when you're a kid you go into for girls they go into the toy store and the toys marketed to girls are dolls From the time you're a baby you're being told you should be a mom You know that's really confusing if you don't want to be a mom

Jillian Martino (17:57)

Yeah. Or sometimes when moms find it, like, you know, when women decide, I'm actually all set. I don't want that. Right? Like the backlash you might get in that, you're going to regret that. Who will take care of you when you're older? Like, you know, it's totally, but right?

Pauline (18:09)

which is not the reason to have children. It is a lot

Megan (18:12)

News flash

Pauline (18:14)

of work to have children. It is much easier to hire an aide to wipe your butt when you're old.

Megan (18:20)

Right, you

can have more money if you don't have kids. Just save for your...

Jillian Martino (18:25)

Yeah,

and then there's the opposite, right? Like some people think that kids will like totally enhance their life. And I've seen it, right? Like I've seen people like their lives blossom after having children because they do. They bring you like all of this fun and wonder too. They also like make you want to like bang your head against a wall sometimes, but they're also great, And it's just, think deciding what feels good for you, right? And that's what I mean too about the boiling water reference, right? you got to quiet out the noise. There's always going to be noise. You got to

settle it down and ground back into yourself.

Pauline (18:55)

And

Megan (18:55)

there is

always going to be noise.

I'm thinking of kid people now, if they have more than three kids, then there's the shame that comes on that side of the thing. Like, ugh, how do you manage? Or why would you want to do that? You know, it's like you can't win and you can't for trying, you know, it's like both sides.

Pauline (19:10)

Right. Yeah. And you have,

you we all have, like you said, we all have this internal family, right? So like there's an angsty teenager and an inner child and your inner therapist and the wise nurturing self, right? And then we have our external family. So people get a lot of noise too from that external family. when are you going to have kids?

Why don't you have children by now? Don't you want to make me a grandma? Even when you do have a child, it's when are you going to have another one? So turning down the noise, the boiling water that's either being thrown at you or that you're swimming in really is so important because it is a, it is a.

I mean, I'm going to say something that seems obvious to me, but I think isn't obvious to a lot of people. Like, it is a decision.

Jillian Martino (20:00)

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, also, too, there's also the aspect of all the things related to medical health, too. Is it harder for you to have children? PCOS and endometriosis anything like that, or just your age? And that, too. Your biological clock is ticking. Why haven't you had a kid?

There are so many factors at play to having a child and like, sure, sometimes we, you know, they show up without us putting thought into it that's also totally okay, right? ⁓

Pauline (20:29)

And sometimes they don't show

up when you've put a lot of thought into it.

Jillian Martino (20:32)

Exactly. Right. but at the end of the day, like it is a big choice even to like, let's say you are someone who is struggling to have a child. That process is so hard, To make that choice is committing to that as well. And that's a hard thing to commit to. And it's also okay if you don't want to commit to that, or it's okay if you do want to commit to it. And it's about really sitting with yourself on like, what feels good for you, A big thing I talk about is like,

your quality of life? Does this fit your quality of life?

Megan (21:01)

And then it's the decision. That's like the most simple form of it, really. Does this fit my quality of life? And deciding on it. Obviously, it's not that simple. But that is a really beautiful reframe.

Jillian Martino (21:02)

And then it's the decision.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Pauline (21:13)

Yeah.

And I think that one of the things that makes this harder is you can change your mind, And the quality of your life can change. And also, there's a lot of external and even internal noise because there is that clock ticking, that reproductive clock.

Jillian Martino (21:22)

shift.

Pauline (21:32)

And for women, you know, after the age of 35, fertility significantly decreases. And so the chances of conceiving on your own significantly get less and less every month. So I think it's OK. You know, I think for a lot of people, it feels OK to say like, oh, I'm not sure I'm going to sit with this or I might change my mind. It's really hard to say I'm going to sit with it or change my mind when there's clock.

just like getting louder and louder as you're sitting with your feelings.

Jillian Martino (22:09)

Yeah, it is hard, But you can't always get away from hard things, right? And just because they're hard doesn't mean that we can't do them. And doesn't also mean that we shouldn't do them, it is hard to sit in the unknown, and then think about the fact that I have to also think about this and think about the fact that I want to think about this and I want more time and I need that more time. But like,

Again, you know, using the reference of like, if it were someone who maybe is like older and trying to have kids and this fear of it, like, it's a hard process. If you're not sure and you're going through that process, it's gonna feel 10 times harder, right? It is difficult.

Pauline (22:43)

What would the inner child

say?

Jillian Martino (22:45)

I mean, I think it depends on what your inner child says, Because everybody's inner child is saying something different. I mean, I, you could see it in so many women who go through IVF or, you know, go through like, IUIs and when it's not working, like, this internalization of there's something wrong with me, I'm a failure, right? there's something wrong with my body, you know? And it is, it's, it's so hard. I saw something, you know, the other day,

in like one of the many forums of IVF. And it was actually someone who was born out of IVF and they were writing to the group talking about how, yeah, how they were so honored that their parents made such a dedicated choice and how they loved their life and how grateful they are for their life because their parents made this decision, like such a

choice and decision to also have to go through all of that and to still get to be here because of that choice, And it was like to encourage everybody, And I think that's, you know, that's in the concept of IVF. But when you even look at it that way, what a beautiful thing that you get to already choose so much love for your little child, however you decide to do it to make that choice.

or even the other way, because it is a really loving act to also decide, can't do that if you know it's just not for you.

Pauline (24:02)

Yeah. So her inner child might have felt really taken care of by that decision. And somebody else's inner child might have felt really not seen.

Jillian Martino (24:13)

Yeah, totally.

Pauline (24:14)

And it's a decision that can go either way. There's no right or, there's no bad parts and there's no right or wrong.

Jillian Martino (24:18)

Mm-hmm.

Absolutely.

Megan (24:22)

I very much have respect for people who... and plenty of people get pregnant without a decision, you know, and then they make decisions on how they want to proceed and show up and all of those things. But I have so much respect for people, despite what their decision is, who really think about becoming a parent and who really put the thought into it.

Pauline (24:44)

And you have no idea until you do it, right? Because all of the knowledge that you have is from your childhood and maybe from watching or seeing other people. like the experience, the lived experience until you become a parent is only of being a child.

Jillian Martino (24:52)

Yeah.

Yeah, which probably adds to the fear of making the choice,

Pauline (25:04)

Yeah,

yeah, especially if your childhood was not the storybook childhood that we are told exists somewhere.

Megan (25:19)

Still looking for it. ⁓

Pauline (25:22)

Yeah.

We're writing our own stories, Megan. It's the 2026 childhood storybook.

Megan (25:30)

Yeah, well, you know, it's funny, it's like...

I think we talked about this in a different podcast, but it's like, what brought you joy when you were a child that you want to do again? And really inviting those opportunities into your life, you know?

I

Pauline (25:46)

Yeah.

Megan (25:46)

Let her play, let him play a little bit.

Pauline (25:48)

We're just not giving them the keys to the minivan. They get to sit in the driver's seat with the car off and like play on the steering wheel with the grown-up standing by, but we're not giving them the keys and saying, okay, take us to our destination.

Megan (25:51)

No keys.

Jillian Martino (25:52)

you

Megan (26:03)

Okay.

Pauline (26:04)

So Jillian, you know, our podcast is, you know, the things that Noam told you, things that you had to learn on your own that you couldn't have known until you were forced to know it.

What would you say to people out there who are maybe thinking about their own childhood experiences and wondering about if and when or how even they're going to be a parent? What would you say that thing is?

Jillian Martino (26:31)

Yeah, I think I would tell people you don't have to let your past dictate your choice in becoming a parent or not, you know?

Pauline (26:41)

Your past doesn't have to dictate your future.

Jillian Martino (26:43)

Yeah, it can color it without defining it.

Pauline (26:46)

There, you said it.

Jillian Martino (26:47)

I did it.

Pauline (26:48)

Jillian, I hope your child park gets to go out tonight and have so much fun.

Megan (26:48)

Jillian.

Pauline (26:53)

and your adult part and your therapist part.

Jillian Martino (26:56)

Yeah.

Megan (26:57)

parts. to have fun. Jillian, thank you so much for being here.

Jillian Martino (27:00)

Thanks. It was great talking to you both.

Pauline (27:02)

All right, have a great time tonight and we'll see you soon.

Jillian Martino (27:07)

Yeah.