Pauline (00:02.819)

Welcome back, I'm Pauline Walfisch. I am the co-host of What No Mom Told You here today with my faithful co-host, Megan Nelson, and our next very exciting guest, Dr. Rodriguez. So I'll let Megan do the introductions.

Megan (00:20.409)

Hi everybody. Excited to be back here today. Today we have Dr. Chanel Rodriguez. She's an assistant professor in the School of Counseling at Marymount University and a clinical mental health counselor. She works as a counselor, educator, advocate, and a mentor.

As a Cuban, Iranian American and a child of immigrants, her own lived experiences have deeply shaped her commitment to working with children, adolescents and families who are asylum seekers, refugees, immigrants and first generation Americans. She's passionate about raising socially conscious, justice oriented children. So today we've asked her here to talk about how we can raise our children to care about others. Thank you for joining us today.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (01:04.344)

Thank you, thank you for having me.

Pauline (01:07.055)

socially just and responsible children. Is that a thing here?

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (01:14.498)

I don't know. I don't know anymore. I will say, there's a lot of hopefulness in what that is. And I think it's because of a lot of the structure around kids these days have definitely shifted. So I think that I'm pretty hopeful in that.

Pauline (01:30.147)

Yeah, yeah, that sounded that came out way more jaded than I actually feel. But sometimes I question. Yeah, I mean, I was I was at an award ceremony yesterday and of course, got all teary over some like not related thing and like leaned over to the person next to me. And it was the. They were giving out awards for the.

classes and they gave awards for the English language learners and they were just talking about like how these kids come in every day and they work so hard and they're translating for their peers and I just leaned over to my friend and I'm like I can't even imagine like coming to a country going to a school where nobody speaks your language and like showing up with a smile every day and like we're struggling to get our kids to walk into the pizzeria and like place an order. You know it's just

Like the expectations on kids are so different these days. yeah, raising socially just kids takes effort and intention.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (02:43.212)

Yeah, and it starts at home, right? Is that both my parents came to the United States for different reasons. so both their, you my dad was an international student at first from Iran. My mom was a Cuban refugee. So their first languages was Spanish and Farsi. so which that came with a lot of other things, right? Of the culture shock and adjustment.

and technically being here in the United States for survival purposes than just voluntary, you know, here for what they say, better life, right?

Pauline (03:23.042)

Yeah. Yeah. mean, Cuban and Iranian, like those are, they have a lot in common and also so different.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (03:32.564)

I am a political hot topic all the time. Yes. Yes, I am a product of not one, but two revolutions. Yes, I have been. But I would say with that is that because I come from a multi-ethnic background, I've had a different upbringing a lot and compared to a lot of my friends. And I was born and raised in the Orlando area.

Megan (03:35.385)

Hahaha

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (03:56.512)

same area, but it still felt very different because I had a lot of influence of like my parents' cultures, which are very collectivistic and very giving, giving, giving, giving to people and to be mindful of others because they already had their own story. So was also like to be mindful that other people have a story that you just might not know.

Pauline (04:14.584)

Yeah.

Megan (04:20.121)

Can you describe what a, say the word again, I can't even say it, collectivistic. Yeah, collectivistic. maybe some of the qualities of that kind of a culture, what they offer.

Pauline (04:26.146)

Collectivistic.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (04:26.168)

collectively.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (04:36.844)

I think it's about the importance of community.

Right. And like a lot of people use the saying like it takes a village and for collectivistic cultures, a lot of them is about like you help your neighbor, right? You help your family and it's not so much of like needing a reward, right? You do it because you genuinely want to help others and you feel like that's the right thing to do. like it's not seeking right validation or, everything needing to be reciprocal.

And it's like everyone's a cheerleader, right? So it's like telling people opportunities, giving your name in rooms that you're not in. Like that's part of the, want us all to be successful. I want us all to have what we need and at times what we want. So it's like, it's very, and it can be collective decision-making as well, right? Like how to assist people to.

Pauline (05:36.578)

Yeah. So it's like the opposite of what we see in a lot of American culture, where it's like me first, like I'm not going to worry about what's happening to them. I need to make sure that that I'm OK, that my family is OK, that.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (05:46.316)

rest.

I'm good.

Megan (05:51.991)

man for themselves kind of a, yeah.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (05:54.316)

Yeah, very individualistic. then at times, it's competitive, right? Like you're talking about competitiveness. And then that could also lead to isolation, right? And so not to say that everything is negative. It's just that those some things can kind of lead to those stressors in mental health that...

Pauline (05:54.712)

Yeah.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (06:14.126)

Which both of them have pros and cons but it's to say like in the United States, right? Yeah You know the higher I went in education the more I noticed Everyone is for themselves and I didn't grow up that way So I still would reach out to people like hey, here's a scholarship. Hey, you want to present with me? Hey this and that and I didn't get that much that back, but I was also like well, that's who I am and so Yeah

Pauline (06:40.042)

And really feeling good about that. Like, I say this all of the time to family members, to clients, like if you're going to do something, do it because it feels good to you and not because you want something in return, not because it's what you think you're supposed to do. Like you be you. And like, if you want to bend over backwards for somebody, then you do that. But that's like a choice that you make.

But in collectivist cultures, like that's the culture. Like it is an expectation that you're doing that.

Megan (07:10.073)

Yeah.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (07:12.462)

Yeah, I've been told many times by people that they've been in the US for a while and have been in individualist backgrounds that they're like, oh my God, you're doing that. That's so nice, this and that. And in my mind, I'm like, well, we just do this. You know, it's like to me, I didn't think I was doing something that's a big deal. I just did it.

Pauline (07:31.107)

Yeah.

Megan (07:33.273)

Yeah, we see it a lot in the work that we do postpartum, right? That people are like, well, I chose to have kids. I can't ask for help. But then it's real suffering and it doesn't, it's not just the one person. It affects the whole family, right? And so what does a meal train do for a family? It rises the whole family. You know, it really, it does.

Pauline (07:53.326)

But it rises the whole community, right? Like that's the thing that we're constantly trying to say is like, you're not just doing something good for yourself, right? Like when you give as much as you receive, right? Like we also get from giving, we get from receiving and those collectivist cultures center and value that.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (07:55.374)

Absolutely.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (08:09.848)

Yeah.

Pauline (08:20.557)

I hate football. Like I just, I think it's dangerous and brain damage and like my oldest child knew like you are not allowed to play football. are not, you are not going, like the coach is talking to you about joining the team. Tell him to talk to me. Like not happening. And then my youngest was like, I'm playing football. And I was like, the hell you are. And he was like, you can't stop me. And I was like,

What do you mean? Like he was like, no, no. And he is, I mean, they're two different children. This one is like built to play football, like genetically it's encoded in his DNA. Like there was no stopping him. I have learned to love it because of the community culture that it builds. Like I went through.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (08:53.28)

you

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (09:11.374)

Mmm.

Pauline (09:15.863)

Four years of high school with my older and like barely knew any of the other parents. I know all of the football moms. I know where they work. I know what they do. I know which one's gonna bring the horns to the game and which one is gonna have the list of the roster of the kids, who's planning the party. I've met their grandparents. I've met, like it is just a whole other community and culture that I didn't know I was missing.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (09:29.242)

that's really weird.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (09:40.803)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Pauline (09:43.926)

And like, I'm gonna get teary-eyed now thinking about it, because only one year of high school left, and I'm gonna miss that, because it is really, it's not about like, I mean, it is a team sport, right? Like, it is, one person can play great, and if everybody isn't on, like, we don't win, right? Like, it is really, it embodies all of the things that I value, and I still hate it, and I hold my breath through every game.

but like I love what it has given him. And so when like, when you were like talking about like raising socially just kids or kids who care about other kids like football now just like comes to mind, like it has to happen on the football field. You can't be like, sorry, that guy looks big. I'm gonna get out of the way so I don't get hurt. You're like, we're all in this together.

Right?

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (10:44.418)

Yeah, and like to your point though is like when you're in a team, you like know a lot more about people that you wouldn't have really known. And you're gonna, you have this thought at times like, my God, I didn't even know that was happening to you or my God, my God, because when you're around people all the time, then all of a sudden you're going to be vulnerable. And I think that that's kind of where that socially just part is and empathy is like, we don't know what we don't know.

Pauline (10:53.74)

Yeah.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (11:11.732)

Right? And the issue with that mentality that can it that well, not to say that that particular part is an issue is that it can lead to if it never happened to me, it doesn't exist. Or I need more evidence because that doesn't I'm not sold. Right. And so people are constantly having to justify their own lived experience because.

you're not okay with it, right? And so, like, I had to learn at a very young age who I was. I was, I didn't have a choice, no. I was always told that I was an immigrant, I was foreign.

Pauline (11:43.467)

You didn't have a choice.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (11:52.814)

I wasn't I wasn't American, even though I was born and raised in the US. So then that goes back to who's an American. And when I was little, all the kids' books and stuff were just like animals, right? And so you couldn't really see yourself. They weren't very diverse. It was a lot of just blonde hair, blue-eyed baby dolls.

Barbie had maybe three or four different ones, but it was just like if it was any other diversity, it was very stereotypical of like what that person looked like. So, but also being multi-ethnic, I didn't ever really see myself in someone else because I have different backgrounds. And so I think growing up, it was more like...

My parents were always really respectful to each other about their background. So I think that's really important that they respect each other's cultures. It was never trash talking about their own backgrounds, because that can definitely impact a child's development, identity development, and also how they view others. If they're hearing negative things about a particular group, that can then start translating in other ways and moods and behaviors.

Pauline (12:45.837)

Mmm.

Megan (13:08.057)

Yeah, or self shame too. It's like, I don't like the X part of me, you know.

Pauline (13:08.141)

because

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (13:10.466)

Yes.

Yes, which that happened to me in high school because there was a lot of very aggressive language and behavior towards my sister and I of being, you know, West Asian, my dad being from Iran and he's also a Shiite Muslim, that there was a lot of very not so great things that have been said to us, but also cyber bullying was becoming a thing so you couldn't run away from it. So for me at that time, I was almost like,

Pauline (13:33.357)

Sorry.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (13:40.586)

Okay, I'm experiencing this clearly other kids are experiencing other things. That's what I said.

Pauline (13:44.865)

How old were you?

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (13:49.742)

Well, it kind of went through my K through 12, but there was a couple of moments that happened in my middle school when I was about 13 and then 12, 12, 12, 13. And then another big-ish moment was when I was 14 and then 15.

Pauline (14:03.498)

Yeah. That's the time of life where kids are just like figuring out who the hell they are anyway. Like, am I an adult? Am I a child? Am I?

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (14:08.472)

That's a be a long.

Megan (14:14.041)

do I need to practice what I'm seeing? I mean, my kids came home yesterday and said, we had to have an assembly because there was a hate crime in the bathroom, meaning somebody made graffiti. And they're like, so the detective came in and explained what bullying is and what racism is, even though luckily this was not their first time hearing about it in school, but still, that it's like trying to reinforce that.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (14:29.838)

you

Pauline (14:39.454)

I was worried about what you were going to say, luckily, about. was like, luckily, this wasn't their first experience with racism. But I'm very happy to hear you say it wasn't their first time learning about it.

Megan (14:42.965)

No, luckily they have discussed racism prior to middle school.

Now, luckily they have heard it from outside of the home prior to middle school. Yes. But it's that, you know, 11 to 14 year old, like, trying things on. Yeah.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (14:50.06)

Right.

Pauline (15:04.2)

sponge. I mean kids are sponges right? Like that's the thing. Like they're learning even when we're not teaching.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (15:10.732)

Right. Right.

Megan (15:13.005)

So going back to, a lot of us have these fears, right? We're like outside influences, out of our home, friends, YouTube, social media, all of these things that we can control to some level, but we don't have full control over. So then what, really we wanna talk about what we can do inside our home to cultivate caring about other people with your kids.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (15:35.224)

Hmm.

Pauline (15:43.764)

And who's the we?

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (15:43.842)

What?

Megan (15:46.916)

Wee? Yeah, who's the we?

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (15:48.398)

That's a good question. Who's the we I think it takes a team. I think it takes an effort. Like, think it's not even just what you're saying, but also what you're exposing your kids to. And so I think...

And so I do a lot of therapy with children and adolescents. So it's also like my mothering side as a parent, but then also I am grateful for my training and working as a child therapist. And because of those happening together, I've been more mindful of like...

What books am I getting? are certain things, little TV shows that I have my daughter watching? Also how I talk about her to her, you know, like it's not always just looks this and that, different colored skin tones. you know, I've done a lot of child-centered play. So in that mind, my mentality is like, how am I diversifying her play? Even with imagination, am I providing, you know, dark,

dark skinned like baby dolls. What am I, what am I exposed to? Yes, she has all the cars. She's got other, you know, absolutely, absolutely.

Pauline (17:05.716)

Are you providing trucks?

Pauline (17:10.986)

not just baby dolls for girls.

Megan (17:14.425)

Although that backfired on me. I've had the play kitchen. I have two boys. I had the play kitchen, the dolls, the doll house, and they were like, eh.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (17:23.342)

But I think what's great is that that's an example of just that exposure and allowing them to just say no, even though they have that exposure. Right? Because like some kids don't even have the opportunity to even think, do I like this or do I not? Right? And so, and I think that is...

Megan (17:25.268)

hard.

Pauline (17:43.286)

I mean, I remember fighting with my husband over it because he's from a Hispanic culture and he was like, what do you mean we're getting our boys like a kitchen? And I was like, yeah, like they're gonna have a kitchen. And like, it was a thing that like we had to really negotiate and there was worry about like what his parents might think. And now like both of his brothers have kids and they're a little bit older and they all have like kitchens and.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (17:46.306)

Mmm.

Pauline (18:13.819)

multiple kinds of toys. So I'm like, I was just a trendsetter. But like, it's not always that easy, especially when there are two different parents from different backgrounds or different cultural beliefs, like

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (18:15.288)

They need to learn how to cook too.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (18:29.152)

Yeah, and I think that's another thing is that of having those conversations before you have kids, if you get to, you know, like sometimes if you're planning and you know you have time to have these conversations or even when you didn't plan, you know, to still try to see you have these conversations about roles.

because I think again, if you have a partner or multiple partners, other multiple caregivers, you know, because I'm my husband's from Puerto Rico and what growing up for me, but I had all of my Cuban side of the family all in the Orlean in Orlando. And so we were raised by aunts, uncles, grandparents. We got to see our cousins a lot.

And we didn't all have the same mindset, right? So that kind of goes back to, again, we were all raised like differently, but together at the same time. But my parents still ensured that there are certain things, messages that were said at home to say, no, this is, you know, to be like, like my, was canvassing for my dad when I was eight years old for a district commissioner in central Florida.

Pauline (19:35.443)

I was going to say, like, can you explain what that means that you were canvassing for your dad? Like, we need a little bit more information here.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (19:37.834)

Yes. Yes. I was knocking on doors as an eight-year-old because I wanted to with my dad because my dad told me, look, I don't think I'm going to win. But when something you feel is wrong or you really want to do something about it, then do it. And he taught me that it's OK to fail. Right. But he also taught me to how to be there for others.

Right? It's like, how can you be like a public servant for others knowing that, again, you tried, but there's so many other ways to be there for other families, communities. Like, I saw like a quote thing. It's like, kind of like, you know, you could kind of keep going in your life, but don't ever forget where you came from. Right?

And so for me, my family, we've all kind of experienced ups and downs. And when we all had our successes and failures, our families were there. Right. And so to have that, what I think is a beautiful model of that culture of being there for each other without needing to justify. Right.

Pauline (20:53.461)

Yeah.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (20:53.934)

Also helped me see that like the work that I do I Dedicated even my in my dissertation that the work that I do is for my family because that's the least I can do as a thank you and so I Think that way of like empathy and always like sure there was a lot of times like you don't know what's going on behind closed doors But there's sometimes there's just assholes and they're assholes like there's not just like but maybe He didn't eat today. I don't

Okay, but we also need to know that what he said was not okay. Well, he didn't eat, right? So it was more like figuring that out. But my grandma was an elementary school teacher in Cuba. So she got me to love kids. And so it was more like how to put it all together to look at like empathy. And then also when I see something that's not good, not okay within our community to speak up. My daughter went with us to go vote.

recently in a special election and so And there was a lot of kids because we're in the DMV area So we're also in a very different bubble too than others places But it was just more of just modeling those things for her that both my husband and I went together on a weekend to go with her

Pauline (22:01.535)

Yeah.

Pauline (22:10.091)

So both of you. It wasn't just mom's responsibility to teach this social just and socially responsible life. Both of you did it.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (22:15.799)

Right.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (22:20.862)

Yeah, and I would say we've had very similar ideologies since, you know, we've been together for almost 14 years. But actually, I influenced him a lot to be more engaged in political process. you know, I added another one. he did not. Yes, and I'm a counselor educator, so I even teach students to be mental health counselors.

Megan (22:38.203)

Hahaha!

Pauline (22:39.379)

and you're a mental health counselor?

Pauline (22:47.957)

So I'm going to highlight that for a second because like Megan and I are both social workers and it's a huge part of our training. And we know because we have some mental health counselors that we know and love and work with that it's not as huge a part of your training, but there are also mental health counselors for social justice. And it is in your code of ethics and it is part of the work that you're doing.

Megan (22:54.521)

It's a huge part of our training.

Pauline (23:17.727)

Like, I really believe that you can't be a mental health provider without having some socially just mindset, right? Because we're like...

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (23:27.266)

I say that every semester because I think it's not.

Pauline (23:28.479)

Therapy is political, right? Like life is political. And I say that as somebody who like did not understand politics for most of my life

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (23:33.262)

Yeah.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (23:40.14)

Yeah, and I think like you bring up a good point too, right? Like I had something talking about like how counseling is political and I teach multicultural counseling like every semester because there's no cohort model. And every time I talk about it, I use like an intersectionality lens. Like I talk about how all our identities are politicized, whether you have privilege or not, people are using that power to then, you know, cut people below the belt, right? Or so it's just like, it still has an influence.

And for me, I always tell people self-awareness is the foundation of ethical counseling. So if you're not really aware of who you are or in relation to the people around you, how the hell do I know that you're going to do good work? You can only do so, you can only go so far with saying, I didn't know. Well, now you know, now what are you going to do about it? And so I think sometimes it's a little tricky, right, is that

Pauline (24:26.558)

Yeah.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (24:37.71)

And I try, do limit to, do certain things for my daughter that, but I know she knows I'm not her counselor, right? But you can't really separate being a counselor and being not in a counselor role because your personal and professional should merge.

Right? Like I can't say that I'm a socially just oriented counselor and not at all practice that and then vote and engage in political process that harm people that I.

that I take care, like that I see and all this stuff, or even within my own community, like internal oppression exists. And I always tell students, I was like, I don't got room, we don't got room for bad apples. Like the fact that we have an LPC from Colorado that was pushing for conversion abuse, that's, and that impacts kids. That impact, that is eliminating empathy that is adding judgment and harm. Nothing good is gonna come out of that.

Pauline (25:38.207)

Yeah. And if you're listening and you're not a mental health counselor or you're not a social worker, like one of our core principles is like meet your client where they're at. Right. Like that's like that was. Right. Like it is finds a human being strengths and help to build on that. Right. Like that is just. What we why we do this work.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (25:48.664)

Yes, that's empathy.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (26:03.842)

Yes, and it's not the whole like, for me, I also tell a lot of students too, it's like, you don't need to understand what they're going through, because a lot of students go, I want to just understand what they're doing. And then it's almost like this investigator role. And I was like, you're not an investigator, you're a counselor. Because what do investigators do? They try to keep pushing and pushing and pushing to get an answer that they're looking for. Yes.

Megan (26:26.135)

Yeah, they have to have a judgment in order to follow their theory, right? It's like, yeah.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (26:30.976)

Yeah, and so for empathy, right? It's just like you said, is that right? You got to meet where your client is. You have, it's like they have an experience, okay, but you felt rejected before, right? It's the feeling behind that experience that you can connect with to empathize for your clients.

Pauline (26:52.138)

So we're back to kids for a second, right? Cause like you're talking about like raising socially just kids and helping your child to develop empathy. So like.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (26:55.438)

Yeah.

Pauline (27:05.588)

Let's just start from like, what exactly is empathy? And like, what a lot of people like think about sympathy when they think about empathy. Like, are we trying to like make our kids have sympathy for other people? So like, how would you describe an empathic child?

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (27:27.64)

I think, well, will say if anyone watched the Brene Brown empathy versus sympathy video, which I feel like is like in all training programs, that's a fantastic. Yes, with the bear. Yeah. And it's like, you want a sandwich? Like, it's like, I think with a deer.

Megan (27:36.921)

That's the fair one, right?

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (27:43.648)

I think it's to say, like, sometimes sympathy is just like putting a bandaid over something because we're uncomfortable engaging in that conversation. So for times, I think sometimes sympathy comes out as like, I just want to say something you might want to hear so then we can move forward. Empathy, think, is on a deeper level and being much more present with what's actually going on and what's being said. And you can hear that in the response.

Right? Like sometimes I've had, someone like students, because I do supervision, they go, I don't know what to have said at that time. I said, why didn't you just tell your client, you know, hey, thank you so much for sharing that. And to be honest, I don't know what to say. Right? Like that's genuine. Your client's going to want to hear that then. OK. Right. So with kids. Yes.

Megan (28:35.891)

It's messy. It's messy. Like none of us do it right.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (28:39.502)

But I'd also say it's easier said than done as a counselor because then you see them for an hour and then you leave. But with a parent, you see these kids all the time. Well, if you have full custody, right, all these things. So assuming that. So whenever you have your child, you're going to have them for a longer period of time than an hour.

Pauline (28:55.346)

Yeah, and they're going to see all the good and the bad. They're going to see the days that you are being really empathic and there's going to be the days where your empathy might be running a little low. Right. And like, how do you teach your kids? Yeah. And then the balance, like, how do you find the balance? Like, I have I'm a really empathic person. Like going into Manhattan is horrible for me because like

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (28:57.631)

all of it.

Megan (29:07.427)

You lay on the horn with the guy cuts you off and you...

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (29:12.219)

Well, but I think it's also part of the human part. Yeah.

Pauline (29:22.486)

I walk down the street and I'm like, my God, like what might have happened to that person today? Or like, I wonder how they got here or like, where are they gonna go after this? Or like, I just can't get out of. So like sometimes I have to just have like blinders on because I occasionally have to go to the city, right? But like, how do you teach your child that balance?

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (29:24.43)

Okay.

Megan (29:40.825)

This is what people that live in this city do.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (29:40.942)

But I think what you're bringing up is a really important point is sometimes when we know so much or we see so much, we don't know what to do with it. So I think when you're... Yeah.

Pauline (29:50.942)

Yeah. And if it's overwhelming for me, what, like these poor kids.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (29:57.206)

I think it's also like a lot of things when it comes to socially justice issues, right? Because when we think about like socially constructed identities, a lot of this is just taught, right? So like people, I've had a lot of clients in general with just a gender spectrum, a gender identity, sexual orientation, and sometimes...

you know, I know someone that has two moms. And so my daughter sometimes will just say, mom or dad, or where's their dad? I said, they don't have a dad. They have two wonderful mommies that love them so much. Right? So it's like sometimes, and it clicks after, and so then she goes, where's miss and miss? So it's like, it's also teaching them, you know, about...

Pauline (30:43.327)

Yeah.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (30:45.71)

Like how I talk about it right is something that's really important, too

Megan (30:51.185)

goes back to the you know talking about how you talk about it in your home and while acknowledging that other people talk about it differently too it's like you know sometimes my kids were born in this in the city just in New York City that is such a New Yorker thing

Pauline (31:14.654)

I did it too.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (31:15.768)

I was like, it's fine. Like we all know what the city is. Even outside.

Pauline (31:19.368)

I think every state has the city, right? Like Maryland's got Baltimore, Pennsylvania's got Philly.

Megan (31:22.211)

okay. So, yeah!

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (31:26.616)

Yeah, but New York City is really pretty, yeah.

Megan (31:30.849)

And my kids have grown up with it being very normal for same-sex parents, knowing people who are trans, whether they understood what that meant. I mean, they did at a young age, actually, appropriately, age appropriately. And then it's moving out of the city and living in a predominantly white, predominantly privileged area.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (31:36.107)

huh.

Megan (31:56.73)

them seeing that, wait, not everybody was raised like this, not everybody thinks like we do. And what do we do then?

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (32:01.742)

you

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (32:07.458)

But I think that dot dot dot Megan is, and that's okay. Right? Cause like sometimes when we're, some people go, well, why do you care so much? Why do you not care so much? Like it's almost like, why is it every time people care about historically removed identities or when we see kids or we want to teach our kids to be more empathetic and just like morally good kids and that practice what we preach, right? Is to say, what's wrong with that?

Megan (32:11.48)

Yeah.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (32:37.142)

Right? Like, so I think that it's, we're all learning, right? Even though with all the training I have, my husband does limit sets with her and he's from Puerto Rico and he's learning on his patients. And I can say that because everybody in his family know that.

Pauline (32:41.235)

Yeah.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (32:53.292)

but he is very like open about a lot of things, like about just stuff we talk about when it comes to gender roles and expectations for our daughter. Also, she has like, we said before, is like, she has every kind of toy in the book. She loves cars. She even has a toolbox. She has dolls. She has a little doll house. She has a kitchen that she makes us coffee, because we drink Cuban coffee in the morning. So we even have a little one for her.

Pauline (33:19.867)

Of course.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (33:22.87)

And you know, and she'll make us pizza, you know, so she does like fun stuff and then paints, do his everything. So we try to like, yeah, think about the limiting, limiting that because I tell people anyways, no matter what, when we talk about identities, everyone goes through an identity development. We just don't talk about it. And so there's times I have also.

tried to be mindful of like what she's watching that it's not just like I hate to say all heteronormative stuff because that's all Disney you know all the Disney princesses all are straight and a lot of a lot of the princesses went through a lot of stuff to get to their man or you know so it's

Megan (34:06.957)

And they're usually one size, like, yeah, they're...

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (34:10.238)

So I was just like, there's things that we talked to her about, but we just try as much to let her be herself because, know, we were, we were all, a lot of us were raised, my parents are baby boomers, his parents are Gen X. So it's like, we were raised a lot of like very gendered identities that we ended up identifying with.

Right? And roles, however, there's other things that we were like, we're gonna do things differently and that's okay. Like being from a collectivistic background, there's times my parents were like, you're doing what? You know, or like patience. Like, or right, or why don't you do this? Or, you look so pretty. And then I'll add, and you're so smart and curious and this and that. like, I think those are other things to kind of give them more so then they could see it in other people too.

Pauline (35:01.683)

Right. So raising an empathic child is not just about like a thing that you teach them. Like you're not teaching them like have empathy for others or like see other people's different identities, right? Like you're just immersion, right? Like you're doing it, you're living it, you're letting them kind of see that these are like the values that you have and that you're

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (35:13.326)

Mmm.

Megan (35:20.493)

modeling.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (35:30.926)

Yeah, I'd also add I do we because I in research It does show that kids as young as three years old right can even see different hair textures and skin tones and So like it's very important for me that I have a white-skinned daughter to not just assume every black child is Princess Tiana Right or any brown girls Mirabelle from Encanto and Encanto so there's other things that like

you know, we talk about it in different ways for her. And if for like we even have these kids books that are like kids more like little kids have marches and everything. And she literally can see a picture of Martin Luther King and she says, that's Martin Luther King.

Pauline (36:16.487)

Yeah. Yeah. So there are things that like you, you intentionally want to be teaching. I remember I had my, I took my son for swimming lessons and I had to bring him into the locker room to get him changed afterwards. And, know, I saw he came into the woman's locker room because I could not go into the men's locker room and I was getting him dressed and another mom was there getting her daughter, changed and he must've been like three or four and it was a little

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (36:20.362)

Yes, that's in our books, yeah.

Pauline (36:45.289)

a brown girl with a very short hair. And he said quite loudly, like, Mommy, where's that boy's penis? And I was like, okay, we're gonna have a conversation now. Right? Like, and I was like, I, you know, I was young at the time, and I think I might have died literally of embarrassment at that moment. And also, like, was like, okay, need to have a com like

we're gonna go home and talk about this kind of thing, right? Because it was just like, like it just didn't, like he noticed the difference, right? He noticed that like it was another person that had short hair like he did and was missing parts that he had. And I was like, okay, like he's noticing like, and we have to talk about these things.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (37:19.757)

Yeah.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (37:25.57)

The hair, the haired lady.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (37:39.7)

Mm-hmm. And I think to your point is kind of right. Like when they start bringing stuff up, that's also a way that, okay, this is our moment to engage. Right? Not like, that's a girl, stop, and then keep moving. And then you don't really have anything and they're like, okay. You know, but I think it's also the empathy part is like for boys.

Megan (37:49.611)

Yeah.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (38:00.302)

is that it's important for us to allow little boys to have emotional intelligence, to allow for them to feel more than just anger. Because when that comes up, we're not allowing the space for little boys to be empathic. Because a lot of times people think that you're sensitive, and that's only a feminine feeling or expression. But

I think that's an issue in our society right now is that we have a lot of men, you know, that are not, that are all, you can see very clearly causing a lot of harm in our society. And so if we raise more empathic, more socially just kids, I think there'll be a lot more of, I don't know, like nicer people. you know.

Megan (38:52.217)

The human experience is a full spectrum of emotions.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (38:55.866)

Yes, like you know and so a lot of and I even I just I also wanted to add because this has been happening because you know I've and I tell people like yes, you know, I'm my daughter That's how we just call our daughter cuz you know, they put the kid up and she has a vagina and they say it's a girl Right. It's like there's nothing further with that. They saw penis Yeah, exactly. I'm like there's she's a girl or whatever until she tells me otherwise

Megan (39:13.271)

Say, it's a girl and tell, she tells me otherwise.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (39:23.574)

It was when I found out I was pregnant again and I told people when I found out I was having a boy, they're like, my God, that's so great. Boys are so easy to raise. And I said, they could just raise themselves. And now the person that told me this, their kids are millennials. So I said, I don't want any more Andrew Tates in this world. I was like,

Pauline (39:33.806)

Ahem.

Hmm.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (39:50.12)

My son is gonna know damn well who the hell raised him. All the time. Right? Like, I think that's another thing is that, like, for me, I was... We even were thinking, we even, we love being a girl parent. And for me in that moment, it was very much, my God, look how they're talking about genders before they're even born. Right? Like, my girl is amazing.

Megan (39:54.795)

Yeah.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (40:19.244)

Literally amazing. She's so curious. She's so smart. She's so funny. And it's just, she's, thank God your first is an oldest. Cause they're great caregivers. said, okay, she can help out cause they're going to be a three year difference. But he's also going to remember he needs to take care of her as well. Because that's what family does. We take care of each other. He's not going to be a baby at 50 fricking years old and everyone's going to keep saying, he's the baby. No, we got generations behind this guy now. Like, no.

You know, so it's like, he could be sensitive. It's okay if he cries. Like we need to see the, feel the feels and for him to be gentle. You know, this whole boys will be boys. I'm like, ugh. Like it's an ick for me because it's just this idea of like, you're not even giving, like modeling anything. You know, they're acting a lot of this way because they don't really know how to act. Exactly.

Megan (40:55.363)

Yeah.

Pauline (40:55.942)

Yeah.

Megan (41:14.549)

there's not that boundary of like, no, like,

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (41:18.702)

He's not for hitting, right? Like, you know.

Pauline (41:21.766)

Right. Yeah, boy, boy, boys might be boys. They might be really athletic. They might be really active. And also it is possible for them to have feelings and emotions and care and like not want to be a jerk.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (41:37.004)

Yeah, or stand up for someone, right? If they see something wrong. I want my kids to be compassionate leaders. Right? If they're going to be a leader, I want them to be compassionate. Right? If you're going to do that, I want to ensure that you're doing it in a way that you're not abusing that type of role and take advantage of those roles for good. Right? If you have this type of leadership in who you are growing up or in certain roles out in whatever you want to do.

Megan (41:37.056)

And yeah.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (42:05.548)

What are you gonna do to ensure that you're taking care of everyone? So that's the biggest thing for me is to say,

Pauline (42:12.134)

Yeah. So those are, those are like a beautiful way to think about the kind of kid that you want to raise, right? Like that compassionate leader. So wrapping up, like if somebody out there is listening and they were like, I don't know how to like, I don't know how to raise a kid period. Like, but how do I raise one with empathy? Like what's that thing that like no mom told you that you you've learned along the way?

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (42:21.91)

And I still yell.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (42:41.998)

I think it's one, giving yourself grace, because literally I still feel like I don't know what the hell I'm doing as a mom. By the time you think you figured it out, there's always something else.

Megan (42:52.057)

Yeah, I always say wait two weeks and then it'll be a different...

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (42:55.442)

Right, and there's always something else. I think it's really like, right? Empathy, you know, one thing I wish more of is just like allowing not to have this gendered expectation of what empathy can look like and allowing, you know, other people, like I have an older brother.

Right? And it's like, the way we express emotions is very different. And the way we engage with others, while there's a lot of similarity, there's still some differences that you could tell of like, okay, maybe because of how that's responded. So I think it's also just allowing kids to be kids. Allowing kids to be kids and allowing them to express how they feel, but also have those, you know, they say those kitchen table conversations sooner.

Pauline (43:33.852)

Yeah.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (43:44.012)

A lot of times when you have privileged identities, we assume like a lot of my students are having these like aha moments of who they are when they're in college. But kids like me, I had to learn when I was six. So I think that when empathy is being learned is also depending on people's lived experience with privilege, power, and oppression. And I think the earlier we do it,

Pauline (43:59.015)

Yeah.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (44:11.682)

the better and easier it's gonna be for us, right? It's the think smarter, not harder, is if we do it earlier.

Pauline (44:16.655)

Yeah. Yeah. And start, start, start early.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (44:20.78)

Yeah, like, hey, they're not fat-hurting. yeah, you noticed that they are really hungry and they forgot a snack. What would you like to do? you would love to share your snack with them. See, I know sharing is really important to you and you noticed they didn't have something and you would like for them to have something with you.

Megan (44:39.097)

Yeah, so it's like exposure, modeling, and direct teaching. Like you were saying, like in this house, this is what we do, or this is how we think about it. This is our experience from our families. And also them watching how you interact with the world around you. And introducing.

Pauline (44:57.679)

knowing that they, kids are.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (44:57.838)

and accountability, we're gonna, we mess up. We will say things that are not empathetic. I have said plenty of things, but I've also owned it, right? If I've kind of said something out of character, I've even apologized out loud, you know what, that was not cool. I'm sorry for saying that. I really shouldn't have, that's mean. That didn't even do anything, right? So it's also like taking responsibility.

Megan (45:03.033)

Yeah, all of them.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (45:21.356)

Whether it's in the moment or even after, if you needed to think about it, think all those modeling of emotional regulation also allows your child to be more empathetic, right? When they're grounded and present, they are more aware of what's going on to then also meet where the people are around them.

Pauline (45:31.889)

Yeah.

Pauline (45:38.664)

Yeah, they're always learning as are we. So if you are out there, even us adults are constantly learning. So hope you heard something that you can take with you today. And thank you, Dr. Rodriguez for being here with us and talking about raising empathic kids, wishing you the best with your new boy that's coming. And boys are awesome. We are boy moms. And also they don't come with

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (45:41.302)

and watching.

Megan (46:04.877)

Good night.

Pauline (46:08.851)

no work needed, just gonna say. So enjoy that baby boy that's coming and we will see you soon.

Megan (46:12.449)

I'm like, I definitely have had to raise my boys so...

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (46:17.659)

I was like, you know, yeah.

Dr. Chanel Rodriguez (46:23.96)

Thank you so much for having me.