Pauline (00:41)

Hello everybody and welcome back. I'm Pauline Walfisch and I am here today with my faithful co-host Megan Nelson. Go ahead Megan, take it over.

Megan (00:51)

Hi everybody.

Hi everybody.

So today we're here with Erica Livingston and she is a postpartum centric full spectrum doula, a mental health educator working at the intersection of birth justice, public health and systems change. She founded Birdsong Doulas because she believes that postpartum deserves to be centered. So she supported thousands of families through pregnancy, birth and postpartum and recognize how

often, that care drops off just when it matters most.

Erica Livingston (01:28)

Hi, so glad to be here.

Pauline (01:29)

you

Megan (01:30)

So Erica, thank

you so much for being here. And today we wanted to talk to you. And one of the quotes that I saw on your website is, postpartum is not a phase, it's a foundation. ⁓ I love that. That it's like without this foundation, it can get rocky, right?

Erica Livingston (01:43)

Yeah.

Yeah,

I'm a big believer in the postpartum is forever movement. You know, the word postpartum only means after delivery, and that may be of a baby or not. And I believe that everything after that is categorized as postpartum and that it actually helps us to normalize the word that way and to not desire to detach from that time period to actually own it for the long arc of parenthood and beyond.

that serves the movement of care that we know that we need that I know we're gonna talk about in here today. So I have an almost 13 year old, I would say that I am like about to be 13 years postpartum.

And like in my support groups, that's I ask people to put in their screen name. I'll say put how many days, weeks, months or years postpartum you are next to your name in your little box. This is a way to just honor that long term need for care.

and also making some of that invisible visible. It's really fun. You should try it sometime. Put how many days postpartum you are in your screen name.

Pauline (02:53)

It's

like those memes on Instagram of like the grown-up wrapped up in the burrito blanket and they're like 6,700 days old.

Erica Livingston (03:03)

Yes, I want that actually, add that resonates. I would love to be swaddled at any point.

Megan (03:04)

No!

I know. I know.

Pauline (03:10)

Yes, I'm I am forever telling I actually just gave a public speak last speech last week and I was like I'm standing before you 23 years postpartum and still adjusting.

Erica Livingston (03:21)

Yeah.

I think it helps so much because if I were to have heard that before I was in postpartum, I think that would have helped me a lot. So I think it's just a small way to use language and to also kind of evolve the etymology of the word postpartum. I'm from the South. You can probably hear some of that. And in the South, especially growing up, that word was just a replacer word for the word depression.

So if someone said, oh, know, Betty Ann, she had postpartum, what they meant was she had a perinatal mood and anxiety disorder, but there wasn't the ownership of that language or that understanding.

I'm a word nerd. And so I love the idea of us evolving the language and finding even more specific language, but also really rooting. So I make sure when someone says to me, oh, she had postpartum, I always say, postpartum what?

Pauline (04:14)

Yeah.

Erica Livingston (04:14)

Like,

because there's gotta be a word behind it usually, you know? ⁓

Pauline (04:17)

A lot

of cultures, like you mentioned southern culture, right? But even like lot of ethnic cultures will use postpartum to refer to postpartum depression or postpartum anxiety. And yeah, I'm like, no, no, postpartum is a time period. Like postpartum what?

Erica Livingston (04:32)

Yeah.

Yeah. I love that. also think it's fun to say another one I do is if people bring it that way, I say, you know, postpartum what? And then I say, you can put any word behind postpartum and it just means what you did after you had the delivery. So a fun one is postpartum donuts. And that just means the donuts you had right after, you know, and it helps to de-stigmatize and pull apart the weight and the heaviness that we have on top of that word and also permission it because it's actually a really valuable word.

⁓ Because there aren't other words like, you know, postnatal is not the same as postpartum, right? We need this word and we also need it to be what it actually is and not the kind of attachment and stigma that comes from like, you know, all the way back to hysteria and other things of like the replacement of that becoming postpartum and then us burying it under layers of depression. And that's not to skip over the depression that we know is like a huge problem right now.

Megan (05:07)

Thank

Erica Livingston (05:30)

I know we're gonna talk some about that, but also to make it that someone's, for example, in running support groups, if you call it a postpartum support group, sometimes people don't wanna come to it. And what I mean is it's a support group for people who have had children. That's all that the group means. But sometimes people will be like, I don't need to go to that, I'm not depressed. When they're not saying you're depressed.

Megan (05:41)

Mmm.

Erica Livingston (05:52)

We're just saying you're postpartum, right? You are in the postpartum time period and we're not in there only talking about depression. That may not even be what we're centering sometimes. We're mostly talking about sleep, of course, but, and you know, feeding babies and yes, exactly. We're talking about keeping your water bottles full and like asking for your rings of support to show up for you and major grief and identity changes and things like.

Pauline (06:02)

A lot.

Megan (06:04)

Nutrition and water,

Erica Livingston (06:17)

We're talking about all of that stuff, but it isn't a depression group. And all of that comes from the need for the pulling apart of this word to be redefined and then re-elevated and used correctly.

Megan (06:28)

So Erica, I found about you, out about you, from who we've had on before, Hannah, our dear colleague, one of your posts where you, and it made me laugh, it made me cry, where you had the group chat with the different postpartum hormones. And I loved it so much, it felt like inside out for postpartum mom.

Erica Livingston (06:37)

Love, Hanna.

Yeah. Yes.

I love that. I've

been saying that we need an inside out. When that was sent to me that you said that, I was like, my gosh, this person sees me deeper than anyone else. Cause I have been saying since I first saw the first inside out and I'm a mother. So of course I saw inside out. And since I saw it, I was like, when do we get the postpartum version of this? And can I be on the writer's room for that? Like I want somebody to write that.

Megan (07:05)

Yeah.

Yeah,

Please, I mean, it was so beautiful and funny and talk more about why, well, you are also a creative and so it's one of your ways of like expressing this knowledge that you have. So tell me more about what made you write that and why you chose to do that.

Erica Livingston (07:33)

Yeah, OK.

Pauline (07:34)

And also

I'm gonna add, can you act that out? Can you like this demo since we don't have the text string in front of us, can you just like embody those hormones and like show us what you guys are talking about?

Erica Livingston (07:37)

Yes.

yeah, let me...

I will,

yeah, let me do it. And maybe we can put the post in the show notes or something, but I will pull it up so that we can like talk about it too. Yeah, so it takes a second for me to explain that I, not long though, that I was a actor, a writer and a comedian and a puppet maker before I crossed the threshold into parenthood. And I was just telling Megan earlier, like the theater and comedy,

takes your nights, you give your nights to them, right? And then you have babies and they want your nights. So I had to choose between comedy or babies. And I guess in some ways I chose both because I still try to hold the thread of my artistic self as I transitioned into parenthood and then found doula work very quickly from my own strugglesome postpartum where I was looking around at all my postpartum friends being like, what?

is happening to us, which led me to want to train in postpartum dual work and beyond. And the desire to bring some humor into this space has always been there for me. I do believe that there is so much that we talk about in the postpartum mental health landscape that is so hard and can be so frightful and so scary for people, especially it's my passion to train people.

on this before they cross.

So I had to make a decision between babies and comedy, chose comedy. That's because I believe that it's an entry point. Or wait, I said it wrong. I chose babies and decided to a mother.

But just like anyone who has a previous profession and has to let that go, which is so common, right? Anyone that has that previous identity and then has to release it in some way, I think there's always a part of us that wants like a period of reclamation. And I think this comes more like year three, postpartum, not immediate. I think it's something we're thinking about all through the early years, but then the actual reclamation takes some time.

Megan (09:40)

Mm.

Erica Livingston (09:49)

But I knew that I wanted to pull through like an artistic self and a comedy self that was really alive and on fire before I had children. And I found that it's just a lot easier to talk about really tough things if we just do use humor, right? And that some of the conversations that pregnant people really don't want to have about postpartum are easier to approach as long as we use a little bit of humor to pull them in.

The one that you saw is called Point of View Your Postpartum Hormones Have a Group Chat. And I thought it'd be really funny. For a long time, I've thought about making a puppet show about hormones, specifically for doula trainings that I do, because sometimes the hormones of postpartum have a lot of words that make people go, I don't know this, I don't understand this, this is too clinical.

But I think it's really important not only that doulas know, but even parents understand what that journey of the hormones is going to look like. And I felt that if I put it in a group chat form, people would understand a little bit more and think of the hormones less like something I can't understand that's clinical language and more like an archetype of people you already know. So of course, estrogen is the first one to leave the chat, right? Because

Megan (10:58)

Hahaha!

Erica Livingston (10:59)

the huge drop, right? They got to go. And then of course, because estrogen and progesterone work together, progesterone is like, wait, I thought we were going together. Like I want to go to the party. So progesterone leaves right after estrogen, of course. Adrenaline is present. And I really took time to think about how to talk as adrenaline, which is in all caps. It's your one friend that talks in all caps. And that's because they're really coming in hot at all the time.

And then Oxytocin, who's really probably the one who started the group chat, I'm guessing. I didn't put that in there, but if I had to guess who's the one that wanted to gather everybody together, it was Oxytocin. Yeah, they bring everyone together. They're the lover. They're the mama. They're the one of the group chat that keeps everybody going. And they're also the one who's like when everyone else is panicking is like, have you smelled the baby? like, right, everything is beautiful when cortisol is like something's wrong, like and freaking out. So.

Pauline (11:34)

brings everybody together.

Megan (11:47)

Ha

Erica Livingston (11:54)

I think that it's an easy way to kind of see who they are. have the estrogen, mean, oxytocin changes the group chat name to be, I would die for this baby. And I think that's like one of those extremities of the feelings of oxytocin. And honestly, thank God for them because the other hormones feel like they're really out to get us.

And if oxytocin wasn't there giving us the occasional boost that maybe are not so clear, because maybe you are just like crying over pickles very quickly and you don't understand why and those are all part of it as well. Oxytocin is really such a heavy lifter in that early postpartum time for mental health, know, they really are, even though I kind of, you know, joke about them a lot of like just hold the...

Pauline (12:39)

That's the like,

I love my baby and I'm so happy and also I don't know why I'm crying.

Erica Livingston (12:46)

Yeah,

absolutely. Yeah. And then I did put in the thyroid hormones who were like, I don't actually know what we're doing. Are we tired or are we spiraling? Because I think that that's kind of one that's not normalized as much. And then I came in last with how to close it up with serotonin asking for some support. Because I think if there was someone that would actually take the moment to ask for the support that would be needed, it would probably be serotonin.

Megan (13:11)

Yeah. man.

Erica Livingston (13:13)

Yeah, so silly, so fun, but an easy way. And the conversations that got started from posting that are so great. You know, it's so helpful for people to be able to feel seen in something like that. And then to have a deeper understanding. It's like an educational tool, even though it's as corny as a group chat. It's a way to help us to understand really what is happening. And I think that things like partners seeing this can be really helpful, right?

Megan (13:37)

It depersonalizes it, right? It's not like what's wrong with me. It's like, ⁓ all these things are happening to me.

Erica Livingston (13:39)

It really does.

Exactly.

Pauline (13:46)

Yeah.

Yeah. And I love that, you know, we saw it on social media where most things that people are looking about are the glorified, wonderful parts, right? Like everybody's posting pictures of their happy baby or even like this is the new model of the baby that comes with a leak, right? There was that trending video, but still they're all, you haven't seen this one?

Erica Livingston (13:59)

Yeah.

Megan (14:10)

yeah, no, I missed that one.

Pauline (14:11)

I'll find it for you.

But yeah, they like demo the baby like an unpackaging video, you know, like, like I open the package and here's the makeup that's in my ipsy bag. Like this is like we got this new model. It's it's okay. It makes noise at night. It leaks a little bit. But you know, it smells good. But anyway, my point is like there's all this like wonderful glamorized stuff because people don't talk about the icky parts.

Megan (14:17)

⁓ got it.

Erica Livingston (14:22)

Such a fun idea.

Megan (14:28)

Thank

Erica Livingston (14:32)

They do smell good.

Yeah.

Megan (14:40)

For many people, they want it for so long that they don't feel like they're allowed to talk about the icky parts.

Erica Livingston (14:46)

Yeah, there is that. mean, I think like truly, I mean, there's trolls everywhere and trolls will definitely come for you and say, you're going to complain about this. You called this in, you know, and I think that that overculture fear that that place is a place that makes us afraid to pull back the curtain and show something more than the one month picture, two month picture like.

to actually turn the camera to the side and be like, here's all the laundry and everything I haven't done and all the stuff that's actually at 3 a.m. keeping me awake, like all of the ruminating intrusive thoughts I'm going through. It's scarier for people to share that because of the fear of the judgment,

know?

Pauline (15:25)

Yeah, and that happens in and outside of the group chat.

Erica Livingston (15:29)

Absolutely.

Yeah, that's true.

Megan (15:33)

So what are your greatest hits for preparing people for the postpartum period? That's a lot of P's that I just said. Yeah. Yeah, right.

Erica Livingston (15:42)

I love that. Yeah. Prenatal, that's the I'm planning for the perinatal period.

Greatest hits. What a great question. OK. Well, when I started my business, I started it with another doula. She's no longer a doula and went on to become a social worker. But together, we made something that we call the wheel. That's true. Yes, I've seen many do both.

Pauline (15:57)

You can do both. You can do both. Be a social worker and a doula. We love them.

Megan (15:59)

Let's do it.

Yes, and we

love them.

Erica Livingston (16:04)

So we together, she no longer runs my business with me. We're still dear friends, but together we did create this thing called the Wheel of Postpartum Need that I still use. And it is like a practice or framework. ⁓ It's a circle. has 12 kind of pie pieces on it. Kind of imagine like Trivial Pursuit style, but 12 pieces, right? In different colors.

And that wheel became after caring for so many, so many families that we were seeing they all need the same thing, we decided to try to put it into something that would be easy for people to understand. So I would say, ultimately, I still use that tool constantly. I still constantly walk people through the wheel. And there are things on the wheel that sometimes people haven't heard of too, like Kinkeeper is on the wheel.

Kinkeeper is like a word that means someone who keeps all the kin in line. And it means also the person who remembers what size shoe the kids wear. It's the person who remembers who to send the thank you cards to. It's the person who remembers what you got great aunt Susan for Christmas last year so you don't get it again this year. It's the person that holds that like big list of emotional load inside the brain and sometimes the heart. It's often called a mom.

Pauline (17:13)

That's the mom, isn't it?

Megan (17:17)

Yeah, I'm like, I need one

Pauline (17:18)

huh.

Megan (17:18)

of those.

Erica Livingston (17:20)

However,

I would say, you know, in some families, that's not the case now. We want to be super inclusive. My partner is an equal kinkeeper for sure, because you just can't be in relationship with the person who made the wheel of postpartum need without then becoming a kinkeeper yourself. So shout out to my partner. But not everybody has that. Usually it is the birthing person. Usually it's the birthing person that's the kinkeeper. And that's why it has to be on the wheel, because most of the time,

Pauline (17:38)

Lucky you.

Erica Livingston (17:46)

the birthing person needs to release those duties. Like I don't believe that postpartum people should be writing thank you notes. Right? Not while you're bleeding and healing.

Megan (17:53)

But that's why I'm like,

no, I'm always like, your number one thing to let go of is hosting. We're not the hosts, you are no longer the host. But yeah, let go of the host.

Erica Livingston (18:01)

Absolutely. Yeah.

And

sometimes your can keeper can also be an automated system. Like get all your bills on auto pay if you can do that. Also, that's a privilege. Not everybody can do that. But if you can, like sometimes the can keeper can be automated systems and we see that growing more and more with the world around us.

but someone has to be the one that does that. And then on the wheel also is the word gatekeeper. And sometimes the kinkeeper and gatekeeper needs to be the same person or you elect multiple people to do it. The gatekeeper is the person who will say, not today. And for many things, sorry, we can't do that today. No, we have to schedule that a week later. That'd be too much for today. The kinkeeper and the gatekeeper both know.

that one big event a day can just destroy the day and that we should never even have more than one big event a day. And that if someone comes to visit, it's 20 minutes max and they better be somebody that leaves with the recycling and the trash, right? That's who the gatekeeper is. So there are roles that we need and sometimes maybe you have a great partner that wants to do some of this, but I also just wanna say a partner is not a postpartum plan. And this is how partners get PMADS too, is because if they are expected to be every spoke on the wheel,

then they're gonna be the one struggle busing. So it really does have to be like, let's put this, go all the way around and find all the different people that we could reach out to that could be a part of this. Like what are all of your rings of support? Some of your rings of support are geographical, meaning they like are in your neighborhood. They will be around. They can drop a meal. They can show up. But also sometimes there's emotional rings of support as well, right? And they don't have to be geographical.

A good friend of mine moved overseas while I was still in early postpartum. And our time difference made it that I could call her at 3 a.m. while she was drunk at the bars still, living her wild maiden life. And it was so wonderful for me to be up in the middle of the night, nursing a baby really in the thick of it and just talk to someone that's tethered to my old self that also would make me laugh because of all the shenanigans.

Pauline (19:48)

You

Erica Livingston (20:02)

and would bring lightness and joy. That's an emotional ring of support. I didn't see her all through the first couple of years because she was so far away from me, but because of like FaceTime and WhatsApp, she became a major ring of support, right? So there's all kinds of different rings of support. And I think that that's what the wheel is helpful for is moving through and finding who's gonna show up in each of these categories. And of course there's basics on there like rest, nourishment, right?

Pauline (20:27)

I

mean.

Erica Livingston (20:28)

Postpartum

intimacy, which I say that instead of sex because I really believe that a foot rub is postpartum sex and that there are like many other ways to find intimacy. But if you don't plan for it prenatally, goodbye. Like it will not be there.

Pauline (20:42)

Right. And that's,

yeah. And it's the same with sleep and food, right? Like you said that they're basic and they are, and there's still things you have to plan for because they're like one of the first things to go for a lot of people.

Erica Livingston (20:53)

Absolutely, because they don't just show up.

Absolutely,

mean, nourishment, like feeding yourself and your family. Think about the emotional and mental load that goes into that. Like if we just break it down step by step, as someone who's raising boys that will eventually be men, that better be great husbands, I teach them like how to do the things of the home. Breaking down how you get to a meal and starting with just you got to make the grocery list and then we have to figure out and get all those groceries and then we have to come back and then we have to do all these things.

That long list of steps just to make one recipe, when you write it out, because you're teaching people how to do it, that's really when you can see evidently how much emotional and mental load goes into just the food of a family. Just the food. And then if you put one person that's usually the one doing it and you lay them out where they need to be five days in the bed, five days on the bed, five days by the bed, know, if you lay that person up by putting them through...

Pauline (21:39)

Yeah.

Erica Livingston (21:52)

the most amazing and horrific thing they've ever done with their body, well then we gotta find somebody to do all those steps for the food. So, and that's just food, right? So, yeah.

Pauline (22:02)

Yeah. And that doesn't

include all the emotions of like, I don't feel like eating that or I don't want to eat that or what can I eat with one hand?

Erica Livingston (22:08)

The way the hormones play into it. Right. Yes.

Or any kind of difficulty with eating of like a cultural connection to food, the desire to eat your comfort foods from childhood, but the person who made that isn't around. The desire to like eat the food of your like youth and of your people, of your land, but you've birthed far from home. I mean, there's so many layers just to food. Just to food.

Pauline (22:23)

Yeah, so loaded.

Right, and I'm supposed

to. I'm supposed to only eat warm foods right now. I'm supposed to fill in the blanks.

Erica Livingston (22:40)

Yes, that's what I call

like the perfect postpartum, which I'm against. Just to be clear, I just really think.

Pauline (22:46)

against that even

23 years postpartum?

Erica Livingston (22:49)

Yes,

I think some of that comes from social media that we're talking about, where people show the perfect parts. And then there are some really beautiful books and podcasts and courses and all of that, that are really centering the most beautiful parts of postpartum. And don't get me wrong, I love them. Like I do love them. I love the aesthetic of it all.

But I think there's also a problem if we don't even let a little bit of the grit into the room, we really can set people up for an expectation that they can achieve something. You know, I love when people want to make the perfect postpartum pantry and really work so hard to stock their freezer exactly right with the super cubes and everything. I love all of that. And also it still doesn't mean that it is going to be like achievable to be perfect. And I would much rather you eat a peanut butter and jelly sandwich than not eat anything.

Megan (23:39)

100%.

Erica Livingston (23:39)

And so

yes to the like delicious chicken congee, I am so here for it. Let's put the black sesame seeds on it. Let's take a beautiful picture of it, scallions, all of it. And if it's just a PB &J, that's okay for right now. We could do the congee tomorrow or the next day when like the mother-in-law will be here or something, right? And I think that people get it in their heads that they need to achieve that perfect place and it can be the enemy of actually fed.

Megan (24:03)

Let's talk about the obstacles to receiving care, to the postpartum, to letting the people in.

Erica Livingston (24:10)

Yeah, receiving. So I didn't know that this would be a big part of my job. It's definitely not something that the trainings that I took prepared me for. It really was like learn it in the field kind of work. But I do believe that doulas, and we're not the only ones because I believe y'all do it too, right? But I believe that we are first of all, professional trust builders.

and that you have to build an incredible amount of trust with someone very fast. I have to be your friend really quickly and I got to really lay down the law of why you should trust me. And then once I feel like you can, I do have to be a little bit bossy with you and push a bit because none of us actually really want to receive organically. It is so rare that I meet someone that is just like, yes, I can't wait to just let everyone do everything. I cannot wait to let everybody do it wrong, you know?

⁓ most people are so afraid to release the control of their life. And that is because their identity has been wrapped up in productivity, culture, achievement, and, ⁓ independence, right? Like all the women independent, like we have glorified independence so deeply through white supremacy, culture, capitalism, all of this, right? So it, when someone comes. Yeah.

Megan (25:12)

independence.

Pauline (25:26)

we fought for it.

Erica Livingston (25:29)

I know, which is kind of sad, right? In its own way to look at that. Like how hard to fight for something that then turns around and bites us. There's this desire to prove, I've got this. I actually don't need anyone, right? And I think that's a very common journey for people in the pre-childbearing years identity, specifically women. I have this, I don't need anybody else. I can do this on my own and I can do it really well. And I can do it better than you could.

Megan (25:56)

I hear multiple times a month, I would say. They didn't choose to have the kids. I chose to have the kids, so I should have to handle it myself. And I'm like, that's not why humans have lived for thousands of years, you know? We haven't argued with that, but that is, I mean, it's painful for me.

Erica Livingston (26:06)

Right.

I know.

I don't even think that's truly anyone's authentic voice. That is the voice of the overculture that's been ingrained. I don't think that's the voice of like the essential self. I think that comes from what you've been taught to believe, but not actually, because I do believe that realistically we do all know, because you hear people talking about it all the time, we need a village, we need a village, right? Where is the village? I want to be a villager. All of this, that is there because that's the essential.

That's the real in our bodies. We know we feel best when we are held in community. We know that we release, like literally release our bodies and our hearts and like the mental health chatter gets quieter in the arms and hands of community. But there is a belief system that actually has to crack and it's part of that identity shift across the threshold of parenthood. It's that identity that I can do everything on my own and I've got this. And I think that there are

It's not easy to teach people to receive, right? And like I said, it does take a, it takes a great amount of trust for someone to even listen to you try to talk about it. I would think that like someone listening to this right now might even just be like, this is that like get uncomfortable kind of stuff because we can hear it. Like, have you ever thought you would be a burden by asking for support? Absolutely. Yes. To every single one of us, anyone who says no to that is lying, right? We all definitely have.

Those moments that come up that say that if we ask to receive, if we open to receive, we're gonna be rejected, we'll be hurt, we'll be abandoned, someone won't show up. And here's the thing, sometimes that happens. That's true, sometimes it does happen. Sometimes you make a meal train and one random person from your distant family sends you an email saying, I don't think you should have done this.

I think this is asking too much. That stuff does happen, I promise, because I've been running these groups for so long. Thousands of people over these years, I hear all the tales of the different ways. And it may be, and often can be, some of the closest people to you that shame you for wanting support. It's no different than a partner or a mother-in-law being like, why are you getting a doula? You don't need a doula. I didn't have a doula.

I always say that when someone says something like that, like, I didn't do it that way. You just say back and it shows.

Megan (28:33)

We would like to do things differently. Yeah.

Erica Livingston (28:33)

You

Pauline (28:34)

love that. I love that.

Yeah, I mean, you know, as you as you were talking, I was thinking like, well, I think a lot of people would say like, Yeah, yeah, I'm totally fine asking for help until it actually comes to it. And it's like, but I don't actually need it. Like if I needed it, I would ask. But like, I can manage without it. So I got it. ⁓

Erica Livingston (28:52)

Right. Yes, and I've set up the systems

of support around me to try to absolutely never have to ask. I've set up everything around me so that I can say, yeah, I would totally ask if I needed it, but I never will because I've done everything I can to try not to because it is so hard, you know? And it's also another part of receiving that's tricky is

Megan (28:59)

Mm-hmm.

Erica Livingston (29:14)

A lot of people are really good at what they're doing. People come to the childbearing years, they have been running these systems of their life, their home, their identity. They've been running these systems, tried and true for many years. And so then to say, someone else is gonna put away the dishes after they come out of the dishwasher or someone washes the dishes and puts them up, what if they put them away wrong? And I'm serious that this is something really that comes up as a big like pain point for people.

As little as that sounds, it's under their skin and I would rather just do it myself because I know where the bowls go. And to that I say, get thee a label maker and go to town and just show everybody how you want it done. And that that's the new systems of care is how can we set up systems around you where people will be able to be your arms and do it the way you would do it.

As a postpartum doula, when I would come into people's homes and we would do, I always did at least one, maybe more prenatal postpartum planning shift where it's before the baby's here and we are ⁓ planning and I'm understanding where the mugs and bowls are and I'm seeing the systems of your home and we're planning out the greater picture of the next however many months, right? I would say, well, what are the pet peeves? Like what are your, if there's more than one person, what are the pet peeves? And everyone says, I don't have any.

And that is not true because we all have them. So then I will say, well, one of mine is if my husband leaves the sponge not rung out in the bottom of the sink after washing dishes, I get wild. The sponge must be squeezed and put up somewhere to dry. If it's sitting wet in the sink, we are getting like bacteria and germs. And this is a crazy pet peeve.

thing of mine. We even bought this thing as a joke at one point called evil sponge and good sponge so that we had a good one and a bad one. And so my pet peeves around sponge obviously go into the extremes. As soon as I would say that they'd be like, oh, actually, well, okay, now that you say that, then they would be like, well, this is how I like the top of the dishwasher loaded. And I never want to put a sharp in there, right? And we do sometimes put plastic in, but it makes me uncomfortable. And

Megan (31:03)

you

Erica Livingston (31:23)

I actually sort the laundry this way. And then suddenly someone starts to tell you the real systems of their home and the real ways that they like things done. And as silly as it sounds, this is a part of receiving. Because if you can trust someone enough to say, I'm actually kind of particular about some of the ways I do things. And so for me to receive it from you, I need to be able to say those particular things. I need you to not judge me.

for those particular things and then want to show up for me in that exact way so that then I can actually close that tab in my brain and just know you're not gonna put sharps in the dishwasher. I just know you're gonna do that. And it's a silly.

Megan (32:01)

Yeah, that's the level of

trust. It's an increased level of trust. Yeah.

Erica Livingston (32:06)

Yeah.

Yeah, and I think there's many versions of this, right? Of us, a meal train version of this, right? I always encourage people to do meal trains of any kind, whatever it looks like, but to have other people show up for you and make you meals, give you a door dash card, order your favorite order from Vinnie's down the street, or send you groceries, whatever it might be, but somehow bring food to you, right? Sometimes people are like, well, I don't want baked ziti every night.

Well, then let's put that on the meal train, right? Let's say, I actually don't even like baked ziti, you know? And people get insecure. Gosh, if I were to write out every single thing I don't like to eat or I don't want you to cook me, that's gonna make me seem too much, very extra in, but no, it's okay. Like it's okay to have, to be in your 30s and have decided you don't eat gluten and you don't want this and you don't, you know, that's fine. And so the more we can meet people,

in the space of non-judgment and truly see who they are and who they've become and then show up for that person. Not show up for who we think they should be, not show up for who, you know, great aunt Susan thinks you should be, but really show up for them as they are. That softens that permission, that receiving muscle starts to like not be so contracted and ease into, wow, I can trust my community to actually see me and show up for me in this way.

And that eases some of those fears of they're gonna do it wrong and so I might as well just do it myself.

Pauline (33:35)

as the giver, I don't want to spend time making baked ziti for somebody who's going to throw it out.

Erica Livingston (33:41)

Absolutely, yes, that's such a good point. That's the other part. Let's talk about the role of the giver. Okay, so we talked all about the receiver. The thrill of being the giver, the absolute delight, it's giving me the chilly bumps, like my leg hair's growing. The absolute delight of being able to give to someone and know that it makes a difference. To be invited to somebody's meal train, where they post little updates about their life and their family, how intimate and how beautiful.

to be a part of the web, know that you're feeding the person who's feeding the future. Like that is the part we don't talk about enough too, that I think the role of the giver is such, it's a gift to be the giver. Someone asking me to show up for them, that is a gift to me. Not me giving them the big bundle of food or showing up and rubbing feet and listening to a birth story. It's me, I am the one that is the receiver of the gift.

Pauline (34:10)

be a part of it.

Erica Livingston (34:36)

by being chosen to even hear a birth story, being chosen to even be allowed to be in there, washing my hands as I enter, leaving my shoes at the door and cleaning those counters for you, reorganizing your fridge, right? Like all of the ways that our friends can come in, our community, our family can come in, that's the thing I think we have to shift is the idea that we are, it's not that we're a burden for asking as the receivers, it's the exact opposite. We are actually,

unburdening them because we're calling community together and we're weaving a true web of community when we ask.

Megan (35:12)

and how much of ourselves we get to use in that.

A good friend of mine, her son just turned 13 and he spent two months in the NICU. This was a year after my son spent two weeks in the NICU. So I was especially prepared to know what she was gonna need. So when her friend, when our mutual friends and her great aunt called me to say, what can I do? I'm like, I got you. We're gonna do laundry. We're gonna go clean the house. We, this is their, these are the restaurants that they like that

Erica Livingston (35:28)

Yeah.

You knew exactly what to do.

Megan (35:45)

they can eat at. Every meal gets disposable silverware in it. I felt in control, like I could do something and that I felt like a piece of me, okay, this is where I cry, it healed the piece of me that felt alone.

Pauline (35:50)

And how did you feel doing that?

Erica Livingston (36:02)

Yes.

Yes. Okay. I call this time traveling as a caregiver. You were time traveling because while you were caring for them, you were caring for you. And I do this all the time. I'm an adoptee. So I was relinquished as a child. So much of my work is time traveling to my baby self. Every time I keep a mother baby dyad together and cozy, I am time traveling to my baby self that needed that.

Every time you help a NICU family, you're time traveling back to yourself that needed maybe a little more. You needed someone that knew about that freaking disposable silverware. And now you know it and you will never let it go and you will make sure everybody knows that. And that is how we grow. That is the evolution of the heart, you know, and the evolution of the heart as an expander inside of community to take the heart of service and pull it outward to make sure that you actually make an impact.

Incredible, so beautiful. Thank you for sharing that story.

Megan (37:03)

So I only have a few minutes, but I want, if we can quickly talk about the things that we're discussing also come with a level of privilege. And how do we support, how do we expand this postpartum care when privilege is maybe not part of someone's experience?

Erica Livingston (37:15)

Yeah.

the

best question Thank you so much for asking this and I want to just say how helpful it was and also it built trust

with me to you for you to ask this question in the kind of prep questions for the podcast. And it really got me thinking. Like I was thinking all day the first day that I read it, it was like the thoughts that I was having right before I go to sleep, feelings when you know a question really gets in there and you really want to speak to it and brainstorm and problem solve around it. So I made this list, I opened my notes up because I wrote a lot of them down so I wouldn't forget. Of low cost and creative support strategies.

because I think that one thing that happens, and we were talking about it earlier, is that perfect postpartum is completely unobtainable for most people. In the communities that I support in my support groups with Just Birth Space, most people in there are not able to buy the village, right, or outsource the village, or call the village in in the exchange of money. That's just not an option. You also see people that are, like I said before, birthing far from home, birthing without a partner, birthing without family nearby.

birthing in a new location they moved to for a job and they don't have friends yet, et cetera, et We could go on and on about the examples of the different intersections of why people don't have the privilege to be able to hire a full village. So there's this luxury postpartum that can feel really inaccessible for people. And also there aren't always doulas where people are. You can't even always get a postpartum doula, right? And I'm always pushing postpartum doulas as a thing, but.

There's doula deserts everywhere, right? So it's just not the reality for every person. I wanna just also name it paid leave is an issue in so many different places too. And that before I go into my little like specifics of asking a friend to go to Costco for you, I wanna say that the real issue here is our government and really does need to, postpartum has to move into a priority place.

And it should not be that I'm sitting awake for three nights in a row brainstorming ideas of how people that don't have enough can create mutual aid systems for themselves because what it should be is that we have governmental support for postpartum. Medicaid needs to prioritize and center postpartum, not just birth. Okay, we see Medicaid rolling out and putting birth doulas in this space, but we see how they still decenter postpartum.

Postpartum is often the little red wagon that nobody wants to validate. It is the redheaded stepsister to birth. And it is time for postpartum to move into the center. We know that the maternal mortality and morbidity rates actually include 365 days postpartum. And if we know that, if all of our review boards know that, then we should be making policy that cares for someone for a minimum of a year. And that that care should be in-home compassionate care.

Megan (39:55)

you

Erica Livingston (40:15)

That care should be people like me who love to cook soup and rub feet and listen to you and set up a sitz bath and clean out your fridge. There are a lot of me's, okay? I'm not unique. There are a lot of people that love to do this work. We should be able to be paid to go into homes, paid by our government, from our taxpayer money to come in and care for parents that way.

So that's the first thing I wanna say. And now I'm gonna say all my scrappy ideas because we don't have a government that's doing that yet, but it would be remiss of me to not name that it's my dream that parents are cared for in this way. And that ultimately postpartum doula care is not some like side thing that is like a ⁓ hobby job for people or a luxury offering, that it is actually completely normalized care for people to have people in their homes caring for them for up to a year.

And I say it and I don't even care what people think up to a year, maybe more, maybe more. What about three? Okay. But in the meantime, some ideas that I thought were to have family members or anyone around you, if you do have family, then asking for them to do your grocery shopping is such a huge way. Asking anytime that some, this is a thing that all people should know about caring for postpartum people. If you know someone that is currently postpartum and you are going to do anything, send them a text and say, can I get you one?

I'm going to the grocery store. Can I get you toilet paper? I'm going to get a specialty coffee. What's your order? Right? So anytime that you as a community member are going somewhere to get something and you know there's a postpartum person somewhere in a glider with a baby, get them the thing too. I think even just people coming over and taking the baby for just one of the naps.

is big. Again, this is a tricky thing. It has its own privilege because you've got to trust someone to hold your baby because nobody can take a nap if the person holding the baby they don't trust or they're wearing really heavy perfume. So both of those are no-nos. So build the trust, come in, hold the baby and whatever the barriers are to you getting to hold the baby. Shoes off, mask on maybe, maybe they want you to get the T-dap, whatever all the things are. The blue shot, everybody's got their different boundaries there.

no judgment all the way around on it, but someone needs to do those things so they can be the person that comes in and says, go take a shower and you take a nap and I'll hold the baby for this one, two hour. I call it protected sleep. And I think it's a really important ring that needs to happen. Let's see, what else did I write? Someone taking the baby for the nap, a neighbor walking the dog, a rotating text check-in system. One thing that we take for granted is that new parents, and I say new, but I really actually mean.

for a year need to be checked in on and sending a funny TikTok or a meme or some of that, Pauline keeps referencing really funny parent stuff that she's seen on social media, sending that to everybody you know in postpartum without the expectation that they will reply. Just, am thinking of you. You do not have to reply to this. I understand you probably won't and I love you anyway. Go ahead and send them the funny thing. Send them the thing saying, I'm thinking of you. Send them the like, hey, here's four emojis. This is what they each mean.

Megan (43:16)

I think we don't.

Pauline (43:16)

Megan, if you

have to run, you want me to finish up.

Megan (43:19)

enough.

Erica Livingston (43:20)

and then write back the one emoji.

Pauline (43:22)

Megan's gonna have to run, so I'm

Megan (43:23)

I do

Okay, great. Sorry, Erica, I'll catch up soon. Thank you.

Erica Livingston (43:26)

Yes,

it was so good to be with you, Megan.

So I was talking about that rotating text check-in system. The other thing I was thinking about here that isn't even on the list, but I want to say is that something I've really noticed over the years about staying in community with people when they become parents, especially from their community that isn't becoming parents.

is to still invite parents to things even though you know they may not be able to come. So the same invitations you would have given them if they didn't have a baby, send it anyway and say, I know you probably can't come. I'm literally only sending you this to remind you that we miss you and that we know you'll be back. And I know you can't come to the wedding, you know, or I know you can't come to my bachelorette party. There's a huge feeling, yeah.

Pauline (44:08)

Yeah, nobody wants to be left out, even if they...

Yeah.

Erica Livingston (44:13)

There's a huge feeling of new parents being left out and thinking that the other parts of their community are just moving on without them while they're just here kind of on the struggle bus. And so those, it's like, it takes the community around saying, we still want you here. We know you can't come. I mean, you can't go to the wedding. You're four days postpartum, et cetera. But we wish you were here. And it's that, it doesn't take that much effort to still remind new parents of that. I think it's big. Yeah, just thinking about you.

Pauline (44:37)

No. I'm thinking about you.

Yeah.

Erica Livingston (44:43)

Some

other things I wrote were obviously freezer burritos are life-saving. I believe in them so deeply. ⁓ Any kind of pre-prepped meals, if someone is going to make something to double make or triple make it and send it over to your friends or even people who are having babies can do this beforehand. A family member or other family members, if you are birthing far from home, like family members coming together and sending food or sending a cleaning service or sending a postpartum doula.

and then I just, I know that there was a mention earlier about libraries and like specifically like Megan's connection. I actually lived a block from my library in Brooklyn when I became a new parent and the library was actually a hub for my own postpartum mental health and wellbeing. There was constantly times and places for me and my kid or kids to be. And as silly as it may sound, library storytime became an emotional survivor for me and making sure that I got

Pauline (45:32)

Yeah.

you

Erica Livingston (45:40)

two places like that where there were offerings that weren't, know, hey, it's $180 for a four week music class. This was all the babies are playing down in the extra room in the library and it's absolutely 100 % free for people to be there. And it was a real lifeline for me. So yeah.

Pauline (45:59)

I love

that. There are things out there. Sometimes it's hard to find them, right? But knowing that they're out there, don't stop looking, ask people, find a doula in your area, or a perinatal therapist, even if you don't work with them ongoing or long-term, just finding out what the resources are in your community.

Erica Livingston (46:23)

Yeah, I think that's something that therapists and social workers and doulas have in common is that resources are our love language. so, you know, even if I'm not working with a person individually, it doesn't matter. I have so many resource docs and so many different places like, nobody uses this word anymore. And it shows that I'm totally a Gen Xer. But like I am a Rolodex and I believe in being a Rolodex and I believe in

being a hub for people that need that. And also the reality is even if I don't have the resource, if you ask, I'm probably gonna look for it and it's gonna help me to have it, you know? And in thinking even about the ways that as a full spectrum do I help people find therapists, that's because the hardest time to find a therapist is when you need one. And so just having a person you can go, yes, yes.

Pauline (46:58)

Yeah.

The hardest time to do anything is when you need to do it.

Erica Livingston (47:17)

Absolutely. So finding someone that can be a bit of a resource hub and finding those people like the connectors in your community that know where is the resource, where is the free baby shower, where is the diaper hub, where is the library program and connecting into those spaces.

Pauline (47:35)

So the one thing that nobody told you that you would want or that no mom told you that you would want other people to leave here with implanted in their brain would be what? Like what your no mom told you.

Erica Livingston (47:49)

It would be,

no mom told me, and I probably learned it the hard way, but that learning how to receive would be the greatest gift to myself in parenthood.

Pauline (48:00)

Yeah, that permission to receive. Permission granted. If you're listening, permission granted.

Erica Livingston (48:03)

Absolutely. And I believe that when...

That's

right. And when I give myself permission to receive, it means that someone else around me sees it and then they do. It's a ripple out and it's the greatest gift that we can give people is for us to invite people in to give, to be givers to us. Then that means they will ask us to give to them. And that reciprocity of care inside of the collective, inside of community, inside of kinship, that's the greatest part of becoming a parent to me.

is that, and I didn't know how to do it and definitely learned it the hard way. ⁓

Pauline (48:40)

Yeah.

Well,

thank you so much for sharing that with our listeners. And I can say there, you said it, right? Give yourself permission to receive. So it has been a pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much. And I'm sure we will cross paths again.

Erica Livingston (48:46)

Yes.

What?

Right.

Yeah, you too. Thank you so much, Pauline.

I certainly hope so. Thanks for all you do.