Pauline (00:41)

Hello and welcome back. I'm Pauline Walfisch and I am here today with my faithful co-host, Megan Nelson.

Megan (00:51)

Hi, Pauline. Hi, everyone. Nice to be here. I'm getting a different view of my office today. Sorry.

Pauline (00:58)

Yes, yes,

same mine too. In case you haven't noticed, I bounce around from three different offices. today, today this one, this one will work.

Megan (01:01)

The sun.

it.

So yeah, today we are doing our look back number two. So we're looking back at the last four episodes that we did and they were some pretty good ones.

Pauline (01:20)

Yeah, yeah, I can't believe we're up to episode 12 at the time of this recording, so.

Megan (01:27)

Yeah.

And we've recorded more so it's very exciting how we kind of keep going.

Pauline (01:31)

Yeah. Yeah, I was looking at our whole portfolio of podcasts yesterday and I was like, my goodness, like, you're really doing it. So let's just talk about that for a second, right? Cause we, you and I have been, I guess we're doing the look back on the prequel of our decision to do this and just sort of the attitude that it took to be able to pull this off. So.

Megan (01:44)

Yeah.

Well, I we were just talking a few minutes ago before we started recording and about

really like the underlying reason for doing this. And for me, it's because I'm really curious about what people listen say. And so we're talking about the different types of podcasts that there are, the different formats. And I want to hear the information just as much, if not more than probably anyone listening. And so I love that. I love that about getting to talk to people. love hearing things that are perspectives

Pauline (02:10)

Mm-hmm.

Megan (02:31)

didn't really explore before and then even I'm surprised how much I've even been bringing into sessions just you know

Pauline (02:39)

Yeah.

Yeah. So that curiosity of like always, I mean, I think this is probably what like drew us to being a therapist, right? It's like the curiosity about the human experience. And, you know, like, we have the best job in the world, we get to see behind the curtains, right? Like, so we know what's really happening and what people are experiencing and how people react and think and

all different things and so yeah it's great.

Megan (03:03)

I saw a meme the

other day that was like, it was a cat meme and it was like making this face like and it was like what my therapist brain is like this and it was like I just want to know I'm not judging I just want to know tell me more

Pauline (03:15)

I know.

Megan (03:26)

I'm not judging. And then it's true. It's like, what's going on? Interesting, you know.

Pauline (03:28)

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, half the time it's like that. Like, I was going to give you four examples. So I guess not half the time, but sometimes it's like, yeah, I just want to know. then sometimes it's like, ⁓ I think I could use this for myself. Tell me more. How can I get more information here without seeming like I'm curious for my own personal experience? Right? Like, yeah, we get so much good information. And, and

Megan (03:54)

Hmm.

Pauline (03:59)

this podcast has been really helpful for tickling that curiosity. But also, I love that people that don't get to see behind the curtains get to hear about these things. Because so, I mean, that's how we came up with what no mom told you, right? Because so many people say, I never knew that could happen. I never knew I would feel like this. Who, no one told me that.

Megan (04:25)

Hmm?

Pauline (04:26)

XYZ.

Megan (04:27)

You know, it's funny, like, I don't know if it's just like, what's that phenomenon? Like when you're looking for it, it appears everywhere. I don't know what it's called. But now that we have this podcast, now I hear no, no one told me all the time, literally all the time. And usually when I hear it, I'm like, do you want to be on our podcast? I'm like, we have a podcast that's talking about that.

Pauline (04:35)

Mm-hmm.

Yep.

Yep. Well, saw

an Instagram feed me the other day, a comedian who was doing a standup show and she was talking about I just heard that everybody poops during delivery. Is that true? And there was like a room full of like labor and delivery nurses and they were all like, yeah, everybody does. If people tell you they didn't, the nurses lied to them. Everybody does.

Megan (05:16)

Sure.

Pauline (05:16)

And I was like, I love that. we just had Chana on our episode. That was one of the things that we talked about. And like, here's the standup comedian, obviously like so much more funny than I am. Maybe not funnier than you, cause you're the funny one out of the two of us. But I was like.

Megan (05:28)

You

Not according to my

kids. My kids think Dad's way funnier than I am and he's not.

Pauline (05:38)

⁓

I just told, I literally just said to a client yesterday, like, but my kids would tell me I'm lame. Like your kids would think I'm cool. You might think I'm cool, but my kids think that I'm the most ridiculous person on the face of the planet. Yeah. It doesn't count when it's your own kids. but anyway, yeah. So that's been fun. That's been fun. And then we had these four great episodes that were all so different.

Megan (06:04)

Yeah.

Yeah, so different, different personalities, different topics, like all of the topics are very different. ⁓ Yeah, I also love being able to see some of the therapists that I know or that we work with and being able to see.

Pauline (06:10)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I'm really useful.

Megan (06:25)

them in a different light and to have them see themselves in a different light too. You know, it's like, oh, I do know what I'm talking about. You know, and I think that's so cool too, because they do, but we don't always get that platform to stand and talk about something in a longer format. And so, you you give it out in...

Pauline (06:29)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Megan (06:48)

10 to 30 second doses in sessions and so then it's like, wait, let me talk about this thing that I actually know and care about.

Pauline (06:58)

Yeah,

yeah, I mean, one of our coworkers and I won't name names was like, I'm learning so much about the people I work with, like I never knew.

fill in the blank, right? Like, so yeah, we get to see a different side of ourselves. you know, really, which, you know, that's the other reason we did this, which is community and bringing people together. And so people don't feel as alone and

Megan (07:21)

And who doesn't want their own Ted Talk, So this is like the baby.

Pauline (07:24)

there are plenty of people who do not want their own TED Talk. Megan, you and

I.

Megan (07:28)

I'm on it. I'm working on it. Still coming up with the ideas.

Pauline (07:28)

Outliers.

I have asked my one friend at

least 10 times and she just routinely says no to me. I'm like, come on, you want to be on the podcast and talk about this? No.

Megan (07:41)

I know.

Pauline (07:42)

Fine. So, it's all right.

Megan (07:43)

No, that's okay. It's alright. I know, I listen

learn to respect the boundaries of people who are more introverted than I am. That is taking some time.

Pauline (07:54)

That is right.

And everybody is different. And we really love and appreciate those people because they are the ones who are listening to our podcast.

Megan (07:57)

Yeah.

So yeah, so episode nine we had Megan Farina on and I love this one.

Pauline (08:08)

Yeah, she, I mean, I love anything that Megan does. I won't say she's a favorite because, you know, we don't have favorites, but.

Megan (08:17)

It's like the children, you love them differently.

Pauline (08:20)

That's right. And she just, I mean, what you saw was Megan. She just brings with her this genuineness and this sense of calm and we don't listen have it all figured out and we're just gonna be mindful and accept what appears in front of us without judgment. ⁓

Megan (08:45)

was

talking to someone about her episode afterwards and they were like, I mean, when she talks like that, I'm like, there is hope for me. And I think about that too, because she describes herself as you know, previously being highly anxious and I'm, anxiety has been one of my lifelong companions as well. And have made huge improvements in it, but

I have a kid with medical needs. The anxiety is not necessarily going anywhere in that regard. Yeah, keeps everyone safe. And it's going and there are more things that I can remember to add. And that, yeah, it's okay. We're all doing our best and we can just, you know.

Pauline (09:15)

And you don't want it to because that's what also helps to keep you safe.

Megan (09:32)

accept and we can you know find some balance

Pauline (09:35)

often I'm like, I wish I had known that when my kids were little. Like I wish I had honed this skill earlier in my parenting experience, And I tell clients all the time, we're going to mess up our kids somehow.

something that you do is going to have an impact on them and it's okay and that's how they learn and grow and develop and learn how to function in the real world. And then there's a part of me that's like, I hope I didn't mess them up too bad. ⁓

Megan (10:04)

Or I hope I don't mess up

that way.

Pauline (10:07)

And I'm pretty sure I haven't, but Megan's kids are also like a little bit older than mine. And so, you know, being able to see the relationship that she has with them now and hear about how hard it was it gives you hope that even when you're remember, I think she said my kids were like, remember that time when you used to be crazy?

Even when you're crazy, like it is okay. Like your kids are going to be okay. I think the science, the research shows that for a healthy, secure attachment, you listen get it right about 30 % of the time.

Megan (10:43)

I love that statistic. I really do. Because sometimes the pressure or the idea, not sometimes, a lot of times, the idea that you listen be this perfect parent or you listen be good 90 % of the time creates way more problems than you can even imagine.

Pauline (10:44)

Yep, and me too.

Megan (11:05)

it just comes up and it can feel so debilitating and it's like, no, no, it's not striving for mistakes, but it's like they're gonna happen.

Pauline (11:15)

Right. Yeah. And like I can say with confidence, my kids know that if they mess up, I'm still going to love them. Right? And that's what kids learn when you mess up. Right? They learn that like they can make mistakes, they can fall, they can draw on the walls, and you're still going to love them and be there for them. And that turns them into teenagers and adults who

Megan (11:21)

Yeah.

Pauline (11:41)

are not afraid to make mistakes and can bounce when they fall and they've got some kind of grit and they know how to handle tough situations and they can function in the real world.

Megan (11:53)

like it driving my almost 14, I'll be 14 on Monday, driving him around with his two of his buddies yesterday and they were talking about this new kid in school who they tried to befriend and it didn't go so well and I was like tell me about him you know what's going on with him like trying to figure out because you know I listen like

be a therapist in a lot of different areas sometimes. And I was trying to figure out like, oh, maybe he feels insecure and then he's schooled this or that. And they're like, I don't know, he tells lies all the time. And I was like, oh, interesting. And I was like, why do think he does this? And one of my son's friends were like, I don't know, maybe he doesn't feel comfortable enough telling the truth. And that just hit me

Pauline (12:19)

Mm-hmm.

Megan (12:38)

it takes safety to tell the truth, you know, in whatever kind of environment you are. And I'm like, okay, at least at this point so far, I think I've given my kids enough sense of safety that they can say, yeah, I made this mistake. And that to me is such a win. even their friends are pointing it out.

Pauline (12:41)

Mm-hmm.

Megan (12:57)

then I'm like, yeah, that's a big win for a parent. It's not to eliminate mistakes, but it's to be safe enough to tell them when you have made them.

Pauline (13:06)

Yeah, and you know,

all the things that Megan talked about, radical acceptance, I'm not going to be perfect. I'm gonna, I didn't like the way that sounded. I didn't like the way that I, you know, showed up today. I can't change it. I'm gonna.

be able to keep going and move forward. And maybe it's not you, maybe it's somebody else. didn't like the way some, I mean, I have a teenager, I don't like the way he talked to me. Like that happens a lot. And also listen just, I can't fight every battle.

Megan (13:39)

And I think one of things she said and that I listen remember because I got a little acceptance happy after her episode. I'm like, is this something we can accept? And at one point someone was like, no. And I was like, OK. it sounds easier than it is.

Pauline (13:45)

You

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, that brings us to our next episode with Nicole Lara.

Megan (14:03)

Yeah,

What I got from Nicole is how validating her, what she was talking about, validates so many people's experience. And one of the challenges I think of a working parent is like you don't have the opportunity to see other people in your shoes or even talk about that part.

Pauline (14:24)

Mmm.

Megan (14:25)

other working parents you're working, right? And so the conversations are really small, maybe, or time limited. And I just think that for people to be able to say this is my experience and it's not okay. And I feel kind of stuck in it.

Pauline (14:40)

Yeah, yeah. know, Nicole and I have talked a lot about this because we both come from corporate backgrounds and my corporate was in healthcare. So it was a little bit different. It is a tough world, And it is a hard world for women and it is a hard world for working parents. And I do not miss, I miss the people that I worked with, but I do not miss the game.

at all. But, you know, right before I left, they were coming out with this new thing called the Berg. Have you ever heard of Berg's? So it's B-E-R-G and it stands for like, Business Employee Resource Group. So basically, like it was a group of employees that had like a shared identity, right? So like, maybe there's like the Latina Berg or the disabled

employees Berg or today maybe we'd have a neuro spicy Berg. Right. And I remember saying to a colleague, they should really have a working mom's Berg. And her answer to me still stands out. And she was like, yeah, it's so needed. And no working mom has time to take on that extra project. And I was like,

⁓ right, who would run the working moms Berg? Working mom? Yeah.

And it really stood out to me as like, ⁓ right, we are just doing the best that we can.

Megan (16:04)

And it's also like, who would take that is a working mom. Because unfortunately, sometimes that becomes such an identity. My husband still points out a needle point that he saw in my grandmother's house that's like, if you want something done, give it to a tired mom or something like that. And I'm like, and we joke about it, how like true and sad it is. Like, hmm. Yeah.

Pauline (16:22)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah, the

busiest person in the room. I it's, it's, yeah, so that mean, not that that episode was really interesting and like, eye opening and a little PTSD invoking. But, you know, the court the corporate world is, is, is really

challenging and that concept of what if you don't want it all? Cause, you know, we, we're as girls, Most of us are grown up with this idea of this is your trajectory, right? You're going to get married. You're going to have a white picket fence. You're going to have 2.2 kids. You're going to have a dog. You're going to

work and have a career and everything's gonna be great. And that, that shit ain't easy. none of it is easy. The house, the kids, the job, the education, it is all hard.

Megan (17:23)

Yeah, if it's even possible.

You know, we talked a little bit in her episode about the golden handcuffs or maybe we didn't. I don't know. Yeah.

Pauline (17:32)

Yes, yeah, that was, I'd never

heard that before. That was something that she said.

Megan (17:36)

Yeah, and so now I've been thinking about it even more because in our field, like some people, some corporate perk, if you wouldn't say that, or benefit is paying for fertility treatment. And we hear all the time about people saying

I don't like my job, I wish I could leave it, but they're paying for my treatment. Or they have a cap and then once that cap runs out, they listen leave their job and look for another one in order to afford fertility. And it's like, wow, like that is...

Pauline (18:05)

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, that's a whole nother. I mean, you're talking specifically about infertility, but like insurance being tied to employment, period. Right? Like how critical it is for some people to be able to stay in their job or keep their job because their health insurance depends on it. Right? I that's like, guess

And I had never thought about that until somebody said to me there's a problem with our system that insurance is tied to your employment. And I was like, huh, never occurred to me. But yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Megan (18:45)

Yeah.

Well, and people don't speak up sometimes. people will have really difficult employment situations and not speak up because they don't want to lose their job because their wife needs treatment for something. You know, it's really wild when you think about it.

Pauline (19:00)

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. But you know, Nicole introduced this concept of what if you don't want it all? what if you and I know that she is a very ambitious person, right? So I know that there is a part of her that wants to do it all. And also, like, I probably am also a little ambitious. And, and it's only with practice that I have

Megan (19:13)

Mm-hmm.

Pauline (19:25)

barely learn to be like, is that really important? do I need to do that? And then I can say no to things a little bit.

Megan (19:32)

Yeah, well,

can be the reverse too. you know, I was a stay at home mom.

out of necessity because after paying, I worked for a year and after paying for childcare, I was making $100 a week for somebody else to watch my baby for 30 hours a week. And I was like, this stinks. and I didn't love that job and it was fine, but it was like, it took me a long time to get to a place where I...

was following a path that I wanted to follow and the feeling of being behind is still there. And so it really, there's not, some people say like, I remember when I kind of entered this field and I was talking, it must've been someone at HHP and I was like, you know.

Pauline (20:08)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Megan (20:22)

you started grad school after your undergraduate and then you started your career and I'm like I really think that's so cool you're gonna get so many more years in the field and they're like yeah but you got so much life experience before and it kind of clicked for me that it was like ⁓ there's pros and cons to all of it you know

Pauline (20:42)

There really

is. really is. mean, we...

We went through something similar where it was my husband who had been in a new job. He had the job with the good fertility benefits that we exhausted. And then he got an opportunity to get a job with a better career trajectory and a pension, but it was going to be a huge pay cut And our baby was young.

⁓ And we were like, okay, like should you do this? And also like, you're not gonna be making that much more than we're gonna pay in daycare. And we like had to really wrestle with that decision. And you know, I think part because of gender norms, him being a stay at home dad didn't feel like something he could embrace.

Right? This is also, you know, 20 something years ago. Not that that's not much better today. But it was a tough decision And we made it work. We made it work by working opposite shifts. We took a three to 11 and I was mostly nine to five ish. And so we juggled and made it work, but it was hard.

Megan (21:48)

That's one thing that we haven't talked about which we could talk about at another time is like making it work. The cost, the unaffordability of parenthood sometimes is wild.

Pauline (22:02)

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I was thinking today, I was like, we need to some dinks on our podcast at some point too.

Megan (22:08)

Wait, what does DINK stand for? I'm gonna age myself but I don't know that. DAB

Pauline (22:12)

So

no, it's double income, no kids.

Megan (22:16)

⁓ Yeah, well my best friends, I don't know if they'll be on the podcast but they... They're gonna kill me for talking about this maybe. That's fine. don't listen You know, they are same-sex couple and they were going to use a surrogate and they decided not to. They were going to adopt. They decided not to and they, you know, are dinks I guess.

Pauline (22:38)

Yeah, I mean it is.

Megan (22:39)

And sometimes I'm like,

⁓ we cannot go on that trip.

Pauline (22:44)

Yeah, it

is a decision point and it is a real one. And more and more people are making that decision because parenting is really freaking hard and it's really freaking expensive and limiting and we are overpopulated. And so more and more people are deciding to be child free by choice, which is very different than child free, not by choice. So that brings us into infertility.

Megan (22:57)

and limiting.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Pauline (23:13)

land and our, and our next two technically podcasts, right.

Megan (23:18)

So

yeah, Dr. Kocas talked about endometriosis, which was really informative and so many things that I didn't know and wasn't aware of and have already recommended so many people to go to the websites that she referred to just because there's so much information, there's so much lack of information that is spread out there about this.

Pauline (23:36)

Amen.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, even in the scientific community, like it's just, you know, we don't, we, don't research women's bodies. Like that is, that is the, the hidden thing behind all of this is like, nobody studied the human, the women's, woman's body. Just assume it runs like everybody, like every man's and

There are some real different things about women's bodies.

Megan (24:08)

I mean...

I an epiphany, I guess, when I was working at the VA. I I'm not in trouble for saying this, anyway. When I realized, how come 90 % of the male patients have a penis deformity?

I'm like, that's so weird. And I realized they don't. It's for erectile dysfunction medication. That has to be their diagnosis. But I'm like, we don't have a female equivalent of that diagnosis and treatment. That would not be a way that they would look at the female.

Pauline (24:42)

I'm all-

Megan (24:52)

needs, right? And then it made me think like, my god, we don't even have like, you know, they're not even researching like heavy periods or, you know, endometriosis or, you know, they're not even putting in the research needed.

to solve real painful experiences of women that happen all the time. And I'm not saying that men don't deserve to have treatment for whatever they want, but it was so like, wait, they view it so differently.

Pauline (25:20)

Okay. Well, I mean, if you think about like, there's some procedures that women do, gynecological procedures without any anesthesia, and insurance companies won't cover anesthesia. And I'm like now hearing more more doctors like talking about this. And of course, social media helps to elevate that. like,

So you think it's okay that I'm going to like dilate the cervix. I'm going to put a camera through this tiny hole, cut a piece of their uterine lining out while they're awake.

Like these are really painful procedures and it's just normal for us to go through them without any kind of anesthesia.

Right, but for, you know, men, like similar procedures are done with a local general light sedation.

Night.

Megan (26:13)

why we need more female scientists and doctors.

Pauline (26:17)

and more funding to fund women's health research, right? Because endometriosis is not, like she said, it's not a reproductive problem. Like it is, it is really, and when she said it takes 10 years for people to get diagnosed, I still like it makes me kind of sick. I've seen it. That's the subjective experience that I have witnessed.

Megan (26:21)

speed. ⁓

Right.

Pauline (26:42)

But like to hear like, no, that's actually the average. That's awful.

Megan (26:47)

And that's the people that seek a diagnosis. there are plenty of people that after they hear the doctors say, heavy periods and pain during your periods are normal, then they just feel like their lot in life is to suffer.

Pauline (27:04)

Yeah. And

you know, when you think about fertility and the reproductive age, like sure, you start being able to reproduce when you get your period at 10, 12. And then fertility significantly decreases at age 35. So even if like you took that whole prime window, you have between 12 and 35, that's 22 years. Half of that

you're misdiagnosed. And we're not trying to get pregnant at 12, right?

Megan (27:35)

for the first

10 years, most people. Yeah.

Pauline (27:38)

Yeah. And

most people are now not trying to get pregnant until when they're 30. Right. So they've got like maybe five year window of prime fertility when they can afford to have a baby and before their fertility starts to like significantly decline. So if in those

Megan (27:44)

they can't afford to.

Yeah.

Pauline (28:00)

five years you run into problems like endometriosis and it takes 10 years for you to get diagnosed. This is why our infertility, well it's one of the reasons why infertility rates are on the rise. You know when I started this work it was one in eight couples experience infertility and now it's one in six.

Megan (28:11)

Yeah.

Pauline (28:18)

And that's probably not even representative because it doesn't count for all the people that never try to get testing or never seek treatment. But one in six, like that's a significant number.

the Academy of Statisticians and Gynecologists, they recently put out a recommendation that all OBs should be counseling their patients about fertility preservation options, which was like a, like, you know, because people are waiting until later in life to get pregnant.

and then your fertility starts to decline at 35. And if you don't know, if you didn't listen to our podcast, right, you don't know that that's an option or you don't know that that's happening, then you're suddenly at 35 trying to get pregnant and find out that like five years ago was the best time for you to do it. There's no, there's no rewinding the clock. So if OBs

Megan (29:09)

Yeah.

and

Pauline (29:14)

start talking to people about this as an option, but you know, there's so much work to be done because one, it's not easy. Two, it's not covered by insurance. Right? It's, it's, it's, it's, it's a lot of medications. It's a lot of time off from work. It's a lot of psychological exploration, right? Like this is not an easy thing. Like you go to get your teeth cleaned, right? It is.

Megan (29:24)

It's painful

Pauline (29:40)

It's pretty intensive and we don't, our system is not ready to support that. And also like it's important that we're talking about it. So I kind of love that it's out there. I'd love to have an OB on the podcast and see if they're actually, you know, doing it because also they've got a lot of different things that they listen talk about. If they're lucky 15 minutes, Megan.

Megan (29:59)

Yeah, in 15 minutes.

they're writing their note, yeah.

Pauline (30:05)

while they're writing your note and doing your pap spirit at the same time.

Megan (30:10)

I mean, you're not, it's not, not true.

Pauline (30:12)

No, no. gosh, our healthcare system is so broken. And we are doing the best that we can. yeah. Yeah. And so infertility affects one in six where we are going, we're recording now in the month of April, which I just figured out that I made up that the whole month of April was infertility awareness month.

Megan (30:16)

So yeah.

Pauline (30:33)

It is one week. It is April 19th to 25th this year, but

Megan (30:37)

every year. ⁓ Yeah, but you've decided it's a whole month. This isn't the first year you decided it was a whole month. Like you've been going with it for a couple years. So to the point where I was like, I guess what is even though everything I looked up did not say that and I was like, well, I'm not going to tell her she's wrong. So we're just going with the month.

Pauline (30:37)

Too bad, I've decided it's the whole month.

No.

I love when people tell me I'm wrong. It takes a lot of chutzpah to tell me I'm wrong. I, except for my husband, if he's listening, he cannot tell me I'm wrong. But I really actually appreciate when people call me on my blind spots or correct me.

Megan (31:12)

had this not been a topic that's so important to you because I'm like well she picked this up somewhere so somewhere April is infertility awareness month and I'm not gonna take that away from her yeah so it is

Pauline (31:25)

Yeah, and I'm not going to stop. So you

can correct me, but it doesn't mean that I will change.

Megan (31:31)

right

it's still well whoever decides on the months some person decided on them so

Pauline (31:38)

Yep. mean,

May is maternal mental health month. And also there's like one day that's supposed to be maternal, world maternal mental health day. But somebody decided it's the whole month and I'm going with that. The man get November.

Megan (31:51)

January is my birthday month. I get the whole month.

Pauline (31:52)

Is it November? I think it's November.

That's right. That's right. So, so yeah, so April's infertility awareness month. And if you don't believe that, or you don't like it too bad, you can fast forward. But if you're here, we are going to be talking about infertility. So we had endometriosis for endometriosis awareness week. And that episode wasn't specifically about fertility, but like that was a nice transition because

Megan (32:09)

we're going to be.

huh.

Pauline (32:21)

Endometriosis is one of the biggest problems that we see for people who are struggling with fertility.

And then that brought us right into Dr. Shara Brofman who love her. She and I met at the infertility conference in Philadelphia years ago and have really enjoyed working together.

Megan (32:31)

Yeah, that's so great.

It was a really great conversation and even with speaking with her afterwards, something she brought up that we didn't address even on the episode is that there is a significant less availability of sperm for different races and ethnicities. And for instance,

Pauline (33:02)

Mm-hmm. Not just

sperm, but eggs too.

Megan (33:06)

Sure, yeah. And that's something that we didn't cover. you know, this is not... It's not as simple as you look through a catalog and point, you know? Well, who looks at a catalog anymore? But you know what I mean.

Pauline (33:18)

you're literally looking through a catalog. It might be a digital one, but...

Megan (33:21)

Okay,

yeah, but it's not just like, there it is, there's a lot of things that you can consider and that you might want and with a less resources, it can be difficult for some people.

Pauline (33:34)

Yeah, not just less resources, but any marginalized identities, really. When I first started doing this work and started exploring all of the different things that people who are considering a donor listen think about, there's a lot that goes into that. Do I want a donor that?

is the same skin color as me, right? So that there's some resemblance. If you have a not the most popular skin color, your selection is very limited, right? There's less people of color donating sperm or egg. Do you want a donor has the same blood type as you?

Right? Some people choose not to disclose. And so if that's the choice that you're making, which actually isn't the recommendation for the psychological benefit of the donor-conceived child, but that was a way that some people decided they would go out of their way to find a donor that had the same blood type. Are you okay with a donor that has other children?

There's pros and cons. I know that their eggs work. Right? Like maybe those eggs are better quality eggs because they've had other children. But also that means that my child is going to have half siblings out there somewhere. Right. And also like just because they don't have half siblings today doesn't mean in five years they won't. So there's so many different things.

What if they have a family history of bipolar disorder? What if they were recovering alcoholic? Do I want somebody who plays the piano because I play the piano? Like there are so many different decisions that go into choosing a donor. Some that are less important to some people are more important to other people. But for a lot of people finding a donor that looks

like you is the priority. And when you are somebody who's not of the most popular shade, that gets really hard.

Megan (35:38)

I wonder too with egg and sperm donation, you know, even like sharing it with your child, but it's one thing, but like having...

to tell other people who you might not even be close to, just thinking about this now, this conversation, what a weird thing that must be like. Like, hi, person I see once every three years. By the way, the child that I carried, we used a donor egg. that's such a strange thing to navigate, right?

Pauline (35:58)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah,

yeah. mean, and that's the same for adoption. It's same for single parents by choice. It's same for divorced parents, right? you know, the maybe that's not the same. That is not the same for divorced parents. But whenever there's third party reproduction, we used to get this all the time. Like, my God, he looks just like your husband. No real.

Do I say anything? Like, and you know, we raised our youngest like proudly knowing that he was adopted. In part because we had a six year old at the time. Like it was not possible to keep that a secret, right? Like I like to be all altruistic, but like circumstances didn't really allow for a lot of secret around that. And I don't regret that at all. I'm so grateful.

But he used to call me all the time from school and be like, Joey doesn't believe that I'm adopted. Can you please tell him I'm not lying? And he was so proud of it. Like he had to go to school and be like, I'm adopted. I mean, I had teachers who he would write it on the, if you have kids and you're listening, there's this in September in grade school, everybody fills out this thing. My name is, I am so years old.

One thing I'm proud of is my favorite sport is, but Alex would always write, I'm proud, I'm adopted. And his teachers would call me and be like, is it true? Like, I don't know how to ask you this, but like, is it true? And is it okay if we hang it up? And I was like, yes, like, yes, please. Like we are so proud of it. And that's part of who he is, but that's, that's, that's, that takes work.

And, you know, it's an uncomfortable conversation to say they're donor. Right? And these are things that families who choose to build their families through third party reproduction face and think about and have them decide where people who get pregnant spontaneously don't listen put that much thought into it.

Megan (38:06)

You know, it's so funny because it came up in one of my groups the other day that And I I created this just so everyone knows But I was like, you know, it's almost like there's another trimester That's ongoing and you don't necessarily know how it is when there's infertility when there's Adoption when there it's like another you're thinking about this long before

conception.

Pauline (38:32)

Yeah, development start. like that. Megan development starts before conception.

Megan (38:38)

you know, which is why when we talk about loss, the loss is there no matter if it was a chemical pregnancy or you know, that it's a loss. It's a real loss.

Pauline (38:51)

Yeah, yeah, even if it never even made it to chemical pregnancy, right? Even if it was an embryo that was transferred that didn't stick.

Megan (39:01)

even if it was an egg that never made it.

Pauline (39:03)

didn't fertilize,

right, a missed opportunity.

Megan (39:07)

Yeah.

Pauline (39:07)

Yeah, you know, there's like, ⁓ my gosh, just Craigslist still exists? I'm not old.

Megan (39:11)

don't know. I've said it a few weeks ago.

Pauline (39:14)

Huh, anyway, there

used to be a page on Craigslist for like missed connections. Like I passed somebody in the train who I should have said hello to and like, did you see me? It's like that with babies, right? Like these failed, which I don't even like the term, but these cycles that didn't work out or these missed connections with babies and loss and grief that comes along with it.

Megan (39:19)

yeah!

So lots to talk about.

Pauline (39:40)

There's so much,

so much need in this period of time in people's lives. I'm glad that we get to have a whole month to talk about it.

Megan (39:50)

So we're going to talk to people who have lived experience and lots of stories. We might some of the stories we might listen put in other times too, because we have a lot of stories. Lots of people want to share their stories and we're so excited about that and grateful for that. Infertility 2026. ⁓

Pauline (39:55)

Mm-hmm.

We need a whole year.

I think for people who are living it, they are probably living it

for the whole year.

Megan (40:16)

or multiple years.

Pauline (40:18)

Yeah.

Yeah, so I'm taking a month.

Megan (40:21)

Take them on.

Pauline (40:22)

week.

We got a lot to talk about.

Megan (40:23)

And

if those of you are not really interested in infertility, listen anyway because you probably know someone who is going through it, whether you know it or not. yeah, one in six. Yeah.

Pauline (40:35)

Yep, and if you don't now, you will.

You will, one in six.

So that's your neighbor, it's your kid's teacher, it's the person who cuts your hair, your dentist. Sadly, sometimes it's your OB.

Megan (40:51)

Yeah, sometimes it's your fertility doctor.

Pauline (40:54)

Yeah, yeah. I have, I'm not disclosing anything because they were not my patients, but I have spoken to nurses who work in the fertility clinic, who are going through their own fertility experiences along the way. Because I was there as a patient, I was like, yeah, this is the kind of work I do. And they're like, my gosh, like, I wish I had known that there were therapists who do this, because I was going through it while I was working here.

It impacts everybody. So if you think that you don't know somebody who's gone through it, you're probably wrong. They just probably haven't told you about it. But if you haven't, you will because one in six and more people are talking about it. More people are speaking about it and we're breaking down the stigma and talking about it out loud.

Megan (41:38)

What are you most excited to talk about?

40.

Pauline (41:40)

my goodness.

don't know. mean, have fertility. We're going to talk about fertility preservation. We're going to talk about same sex couples. We're going to talk about surgeries. We're going to talk about advanced maternal age. I don't know if there's one thing that I'm most excited. I think fertility preservation might be the one thing I'm most excited about.

Megan (42:01)

Okay, cool. I also am excited just to hear... I like it when people say, is what helped me from my friends and family and this is what did not. So, I think that is always like...

Pauline (42:13)

and

Yeah.

Well, it has been so much fun doing this with you, Megan. And yeah, not a day goes by that I don't talk to somebody and be like, do you want to be on our podcast? And I am like, overwhelmed.

Megan (42:24)

I you!

Pauline (42:30)

love the amount of people that are like, yeah.

Right, people want to share their story.

I love that. We don't talk about these things enough.

Megan (42:38)

Yeah, I'm glad we have this little window. This little window. That's not the right... this little...

Pauline (42:41)

year.

That's true. We have like a little window into people's hearts and homes.

Megan (42:47)

Okay,

all right, we'll go with that.

Pauline (42:48)

if you have been along for these four episodes, thank you. If you caught just this one, welcome. We're so glad to have you and we are...

hopeful that you will stick around. Look through our inventory, see which one resonates with you, but join us because we are talking about the things that no mom told you and we are taking the secrets out of the closet. So thanks for being here.

Megan (43:16)

And if you

have anything you want us to talk about, any topics, send us a message on our Instagram, NoMomToldYou.

Pauline (43:26)

Yeah, I'm probably supposed to be like, drop it in the comments below, but we're not that cool yet. Like and subscribe.

Megan (43:30)

Subscribe and like and subscribe.

I hope I'm still doing that. They're probably not still doing that. But anyway.

Pauline (43:39)

I know, I've seen that done before though. Anyway, see you next week. Bye.

Megan (43:41)

Okay, bye guys. Okay, bye.