Natalie Reiter (00:00)

a lot of conversation that I have with a lot of my clients really is just like, do you know just what you like and what you don't like? And does your partner know that?

we've had a a sexual life and experience before we give birth, and then we're gonna have a sexual life experience after we give birth, and very often they're very different.

And really understanding that, especially during the birth, if we have traumatic birth or like NICU stays or just birth in general, a lot of times our our breaks are getting pushed in a lot of different ways.

that they weren't getting pushed before.

Pauline (00:51)

Welcome back everybody. I'm Pauline Walfisch and I am here today with my faithful co-host, Megan Nelson. Megan introduced our guest today, please.

Megan (01:03)

Sure, hi everybody. So one thing that we don't talk about enough is how relationships change after having kids. We've got mental load, laundry, body changes, fatigue, overwhelm, healing from having a baby. Pretty much across the board, but throw in a traumatic pregnancy or a birth or a NICU experience, and this can feel like being on a different planet with no roadmap back.

So today we asked a fellow perinatal therapist to join us to talk about why connection and intimacy can be so different after a traumatic experience and what we can do to help find that connection again.

Today we have Natalie Reiter

She is a licensed clinical counselor, certified in perinatal mental health, and an experienced public speaker. She owns her own private practice called Prairie Land Counseling Services in Fargo, North Dakota. And she specializes in reproductive mental health, perinatal postpartum, and parental mental health, as well as supporting people navigating infertility and infant loss. Natalie, thank you so much for being here.

Natalie Reiter (02:08)

Thank you so much

for having me. I'm really excited to be on.

Pauline (02:11)

Yeah. And you're all the way from Fargo I don't even know how to do that accent.

Natalie Reiter (02:17)

Fargo, bars, Got some hot dish.

Pauline (02:20)

Yeah.

Natalie Reiter (02:21)

Yep, get some got the bag. Hot dish.

Megan (02:25)

So we met Natalie this year, yeah, this year

Natalie Reiter (02:29)

Yeah.

Megan (02:29)

at the Jones Infertility Conference and immediately became friends. It's like we've known you.

Natalie Reiter (02:37)

I know, it was literally in an elevator. I walked onto an elevator not knowing you guys, walked off the elevator being like, Can I sit with

Megan (02:42)

Mm-hmm.

Natalie Reiter (02:43)

you? And it worked out so well, so

Megan (02:46)

Yes. And thank you for agreeing to come and talk about this. when thinking about this, I'm like, this seems like such a specific conversation, but I don't think so. I think it actually just isn't talked about. I think this is something that happens a lot. we experience something not great, maybe, around

the same time where we're having a baby and that creates a little bit of a disconnect. So

Natalie Reiter (03:16)

Yeah.

You know, I think you're really right. when we think about like intimacy and particularly like sex after, you know, having a child, whether there is trauma involved or not, we think about like there's like a six week benchmark that I have to hit and then all of a sudden everything's fine and everything should resume back to normal, even though our bodies and our minds and our relationships are in completely different places.

our identities themselves are in completely different places. And interesting fact, one of the reasons that they talk about six weeks being kind of the benchmark is because that's when your internal organs go back to where they're like originally supposed to be.

Megan (03:55)

Really? I did not

know that.

Natalie Reiter (03:59)

Yeah.

It's like, look your bladder's back in the right place now, you can have sex.

Megan (04:05)

Great.

Pauline (04:05)

Woohoo.

Forget forget all of the other ick in my life right now, but like glad my bladder's back in place.

Megan (04:14)

It won't do more damage. Like internal damage. Yeah.

Natalie Reiter (04:14)

Yes. Right. Yeah. yeah, like

making sure that you don't have any tears that you're healing from or other sort of kind of just like bodily traumas that could happen and leaking and all those other fun things that our body birthing bodies go through.

Megan (04:31)

Which are definitely happening.

Natalie Reiter (04:34)

Yes.

Megan (04:35)

Yeah. I mean, I don't remember that clearly, but I don't feel like I could walk that great at six weeks. Call maybe it's just me, but I doubt it. Yeah.

Natalie Reiter (04:45)

I mean I don't think I could poop that great at six week postpartum and like

that, you know, remember like everyone's like that's the p the test to pass to get out of the hospital is if you whether or not you can poop and like having that be like a really big thing, particularly like if you had like a C section, I remember them being like,

just, you know, be aware that those first couple poops, those are those are the hard ones and I'm like,

what am I what did I just do? Like

Megan (05:07)

Yeah.

And then they're pumping you full of iron if you had any lo blood loss and then the but make makes it harder and then you're like what's

Natalie Reiter (05:11)

Yep. Mm-hmm.

Megan (05:15)

gonna happen? Yeah. The big scary first poop.

Pauline (05:18)

Yeah, we don't

Natalie Reiter (05:18)

Yes.

Pauline (05:18)

talk about the first poop nearly enough. We might have to have an entire episode about postpartum poop.

The the P P P, postpartum poop. I don't

Megan (05:27)

Yeah.

Pauline (05:28)

I I think

Natalie Reiter (05:28)

Mm.

Pauline (05:28)

that that that might be a future episode.

Megan (05:31)

Yeah. Let's

Natalie Reiter (05:31)

There it go.

Megan (05:33)

do it. Let's do it.

that can also bring up like another thing, right? It's like if we don't talk about postpartum poop, then we're definitely not talking about postpartum sex.

Natalie Reiter (05:42)

yeah,

definitely not. in the region of the US where I am from, sex is just really not talked about in general. a lot of like the sex education is really kind of based on abstinence, or we just don't talk about it pretty kind of more just culturally conservative and so

We're definitely not talking about it, you know, postpartum, but we're really not even really talking about it prepartum and when we're even talking about like like fertility and like how many, individuals, both males and females, don't even know how their body functions in a reproductive way. talking about just like how our bodies function, you know, is one way that you can actually start to

build or bridge intimacy is just even things like I've gotten my period or I haven't gotten my period or you I'm experiencing some breast tenderness or you know I'm experiencing some cramping just like familiarizing yourself with your partner and how their body functions like I'm feeling bloated today or things like that. that's actually a part of intimacy. You know intimacy itself is about feelings of closeness. That's really what it is. it's not just sex. Intimacy is about feeling connected and feeling together.

and really how you're functioning as a unit and those feelings of vulnerability that are allowed to kind of really come up. and when we have kiddos, that intimacy just really gets chipped away at, you know, because again our own identities are shifting within ourselves and our bodies and how they function both perinatally, during pregnancy and postpartum. you know, our

Partners are seeing our bodies, sometimes it's a really big turn on for them. Sometimes it's a turn off. but when we kind of talk about just like basic kind of intimacy and like basic intro to sex, a lot of conversation that I have with a lot of my clients really is just like, do you know just what you like and what you don't like? And does your partner know that? understanding that.

we've had a a sexual life and experience before we give birth, and then we're gonna have a sexual life experience after we give birth, and very often they're very different. And things that we used to like maybe we don't like as much anymore, or things that we didn't like all of a sudden we might like or enjoy. Like, you nipple sensitivity tends to go up. So that can be more or less, you know, depending on where you were at pre or post. of my absolute favorite things is to really use Emily Nagoski's "Come As You Are."

That book is like the sex education that everybody really needs, you know, understanding like your accelerators or the things that, get you more into the mood or get you more turned on, or, you know, the breaks, the things that slow things down. And really understanding that, especially during the birth, if we have traumatic birth or like NICU stays or just birth in general, a lot of times our our breaks are getting pushed in a lot of different ways.

that they weren't getting pushed before.

Megan (08:37)

One thing I haven't read that book in years, but one thing I believe I remember is her talking about the different types of arousal.

Natalie Reiter (08:45)

Mm.

Megan (08:46)

Right, and I I don't think she describes it like this, but it's like how we become aroused and that shifts like postpartum.

Pauline (08:54)

Right. It's

Natalie Reiter (08:54)

Mm-hmm.

Pauline (08:54)

that that concept that like sex starts outside of the bedroom.

Natalie Reiter (08:58)

Yeah.

Pauline (08:59)

Right. Or that like the the hu- the biggest

Megan (08:59)

Yeah. And like the brain, yeah.

Natalie Reiter (09:01)

Mm-hmm.

Pauline (09:01)

sex organ is actually your brain.

Megan (09:04)

And it makes sense then what also is happening in the brain postpartum? Sometimes anxiety, sometimes rumination, sometimes like these intrusive thoughts or like flashbacks or something like that. And yeah, that's gonna be like eek.

Natalie Reiter (09:22)

Yeah, exactly. And I think understanding like again, like that's something that as a individual, like you that can really change again for a lot of people throughout the birth experience, is, you know, what my my brain needed in order to get in the mood or kind of turned on or like ready to kind of be in a space is a lot different than the physiological arousal piece.

understanding that just those things can can shift. You know, like I think one of the most common themes that I hear from moms, and this doesn't even have to do with intimacy, but is just like I'm so like touched out. And so the the idea of having to like touch and become sweaty and have other fluids like get involved that are just like I can't handle that because then I'm gonna have to spend time cleaning up. It's time I could be spent

you know, doing the the list, the mental load of other

Pauline (10:16)

Sleeping.

Natalie Reiter (10:17)

things. Sleeping, exactly. I think that's where we can really turn to like how do I focus on like intimacy versus just like sex and like how do I connect with my partner in ways that feel good, that make it so that that mental load is not as big or

The subjective arousal or the mental arousal doesn't need to be like that threshold isn't as high. I can get more kind of into the feeling of it because I'm having these more smaller moments of intimacy throughout my day, throughout my week, throughout my month that I can build on and that my brain goes back to as this is safe, this is consensual, this is exciting and fun and provides feelings of.

contentment and joy and excitement, how do we build those things?

Pauline (11:08)

'Cause for a lot of people it just feels like a chore.

Natalie Reiter (11:11)

Yeah.

Pauline (11:11)

an expectation, something I'm supposed to an

obligation.

Megan (11:16)

Yeah, I have to do it for the other person, but it's not something that I really want.

Natalie Reiter (11:21)

Yeah.

Megan (11:22)

So let's go and talk about a little bit what these stressors that really can complicate this, like

Right now we're kind of talking about like everyday stressors of having following having children. But then there's another layer when we get to like having a traumatic birth or being in it having a NICU's day, which generally there's probably some traumatic experience that happens in order to land in the NICU. but

What are some of these experiences that you know about, that you hear about that really can interfere with this sense of identity and this real intimate relationship?

Natalie Reiter (12:01)

You know, I think one that maybe isn't talked about as much maybe out in public, but I think is is I hear a lot in in my work is whether or not there's a sense of empowerment experience during birth.

we talk a lot about you know with birth trauma, about you know, the feeling of of disempowered, disenfranchisement, loss of self, loss of control, and you know, really talking with

With individuals, particularly when it comes to like sexuality and having, you know, you really need those things in order to feel safe and vulnerable and to kind of enjoy the experience. But when we have third degree tears, when we have when we're being knocked out unconscious because we have to go into an emergency C section, when we're living in the NICU for however long you're in the NICU, but you and your partner are probably not even spending as much time there in the NICU because you want at least one parent there.

as often as possible. So maybe you're sleeping apart, or maybe, you know, one's working all day while one's at the hospital, there's a l a lot of this feeling is of like disempowerment, how do we rebuild or work some of those feelings in order to feel in a place to even kind of start to work through some of the trauma that occurs or exists.

Pauline (13:13)

Yeah. 'Cause very often we hear new moms, especially when a baby's in the NICU, like assigning some blame to themselves of,

I did this wrong, I did that wrong, it's my fault, it's my body, you know. And we know that these are irrational thoughts, but very often they feel really true. And so if there's that that if somebody out there is feeling like

their body failed them or that like they didn't do what they were supposed to do, I imagine that doesn't lend to feeling like I'm gonna love my body or want anybody else to look at it or touch it or appreciate it.

Megan (13:58)

the trauma of what happened and what landed people there doesn't stop when you right. And so then there's also these other components of like I'm just thinking of people trying to learn to breastfeed while they're in the NICU or having to pump and maybe it's not going so great

the trauma is still ongoing, right? It doesn't like stop and then okay now we get to start healing. Many times there's small things that cumulate and sometimes major things that are still happening. Right.

Pauline (14:28)

Especially

when you have a baby in the NICU, right? That is literally an ongoing trauma. Until

your baby's ready to come home and even then sometimes it's still traumatic 'cause they're coming home with tubes and machines and nurses

and all the things.

Natalie Reiter (14:44)

the NICU experience it is just like it it is such a journey, no matter whether your journey is an hour long or months long or a year long, that experience really stays with you. And I think there like you said, there are feelings of of blame and failure are really kind of common themes. And really kind of relating that back to like, you know,

I can't control these things, but I can control myself and so that's where I like to place the blame is in what I can what did I do wrong, which is really kinda tough. but like you said, like the

Megan (15:17)

Like trying to make sense

of it and it's like, Well at least I can make sense of it this way if it's my fault. Yeah.

Natalie Reiter (15:21)

Right.

Yeah, like if like like with the inner uterine growth restriction, like if my body had produced like a better functioning placenta or had done something like that to better support it, then you know, we wouldn't have had like this experience. the reason that, you know, my child is is smaller or, you know, is on a different growth scale is because I failed my body failed my child, you know, like

Megan (15:44)

Well, and that's even

the language that is assigned to it. Like cervical incompetency, that is already kind of placing blame on the female's body. Like there's probably a lot more. failure to regress. Yeah.

Pauline (15:55)

Well, even labor, failure to progress, right? Like

Natalie Reiter (15:58)

Mm-hmm.

Megan (15:59)

now I'm gonna start thinking seeing everywhere, I'm sure that like we label these things as like especially the female problem where they had actually no control. But even in the label it's pretending that we do.

Natalie Reiter (16:13)

not

sure about like your hospital systems, but like one of the big conversations that I have with clients

who are like actively miscarrying or have ha had a recent miscarriage is if you went into the hospital and had a DNC or got prescribed or something

you need to know that on the coding bill it's going to be labeled as an abortion, whether or not it was voluntary so when you get that bill, you know, look we do a lot of processing around that because that is such a flashing word that gets so much attention and so much feeling, you know, from both sides about what it should be. But it is medically labeled that way and for billing. And, you know, again, that's really

Tough when that, you know, that occurs.

Megan (16:56)

I mean we could talk about this as being like an issue now in our country where like that's interfering with medical care for women too to be able to get a DNC because of that labeling.

Pauline (17:08)

And this fear of, you know, safety and what is that gonna mean? Is this gonna follow me? Are people gonna like am I gonna be flagged somewhere? I actually don't know how that's coded here. I haven't heard clients complain about that, so I wonder if it's not a thing. Or it's just because we're in a state where rights aren't being th threatened.

currently. I I don't know, Megan, have you heard that come up?

Megan (17:38)

I only heard it come up in like the national on the national

Pauline (17:40)

Yeah.

Megan (17:41)

level. And I and I think that you're right though hear it come up when it is people having to access a DNC following

the loss of their pregnancy and they can't, you know, because it's confusing terminology and doctors don't know if they're legally allowed to provide that service or not, even though it's, you know, following the miscarriage.

but the level of trauma that creates, I mean, is just

Pauline (18:09)

Yeah. gosh, I don't know where I read it or heard it, but like having to go home and wait three days to make sure that there's no heartbeat so that your doctor isn't worried about

the repercussions

Natalie Reiter (18:20)

Yeah.

Pauline (18:21)

of the medical treatment. So

all of these things really fracture that sense of self. I mean becoming a mom, period.

Natalie Reiter (18:31)

Yes.

Pauline (18:31)

does a great

job of like fracturing who you are.

Megan (18:33)

Yeah. Who am I? What

I mean the mild version of it that I have is like obviously I dress in colorful clothing and for 18 months after my children were born I would dress in black and white clothing only because I didn't have enough brain space to match things. people would be like, That this doesn't seem like you I'm like, Yeah, it's not, but

Pauline (18:55)

I'm impressed you cared because I'm I I

I mean it was twenty years ago and I'm perimenopausal now, so I can barely remember. But I'm pretty sure like I had mismatched socks and I know for certain I went to work one time with mismatched shoes. So

Natalie Reiter (19:12)

I definitely have done that as

well. Well, I know one of the signs like that I was really struggling with postpartum depression was that like my husband came home one day and he's like, Honey, I'm really sorry to say this, but you smell like you really need to shower. it was very obvious that I was not taking care of myself super great, you know, because I again like I was so busy and so focused and I my postpartum anxiety was just so about all these other things.

I would ruminate at night about I was in a doc program at the time, which I actually did not go back and finish. And part of the reason I didn't go back and finish is because nobody in my program reached out both you know after I had given birth or in like the following year afterwards, just to like even like see where I was at on my educational journey. And this also is a faculty that had very few children

But like I was ruminating about an assignment that I had do that I had gotten an extension on, and I would stay awake for hours thinking about this stupid assignment, And again, this is like one of the the signifiers when you know that I I was like, look like I'm a therapist, and I can like, you what, Natalie, you probably shouldn't think about two and a half hours about giving a presentation. Like you're probably okay.

but like it's really hard when it's three o'clock in the morning and you're alone and you haven't slept and it's just you and the small baby and you're like can I go to sleep? Yeah, like and you know,

Megan (20:32)

In the street light, yeah, that's it. Yeah.

Natalie Reiter (20:36)

we had an unplanned C section. I wouldn't d identify it as traumatic and we did not have a NICU stay but my part of the reason we had an unplanned C section is because my daughter was breach and so I couldn't progress.

And so, you know, there's always been that for me, the you know, have I actually given birth, you know, like that kind of controversy b

Pauline (20:55)

Mm.

Natalie Reiter (20:55)

controversy because I've had two C sections.

Megan (21:00)

So, I mean, yeah, like

Pauline (21:03)

You gave birth you gave birth you're holding out that baby

Megan (21:09)

I'm

Natalie Reiter (21:08)

Yeah.

Megan (21:09)

a provider, and I'm like hearing you say that, it makes me so sad because

Natalie Reiter (21:16)

Yeah.

Megan (21:17)

I haven't even ever questioned that for somebody, and so that makes me so sad now.

I know that that is a question that lives in people's minds. Like, ugh.

Natalie Reiter (21:26)

Yeah. And I think like when questions like that live in your mind, like especially like if you are experiencing like postpartum anxiety or depression or something like that, connecting with a partner and having to try to, you know, have some sort of intimacy level, whether it's sex or not, like it is so difficult to be like, who am I as a person now? My body doesn't respond the way that it's supposed to. How am I supposed to know that,

any sort of vulnerability or intimacy feels safe, again, because there's a re-establishing of safety, especially like I I hear stories of partner, whether or not how present they were in the room or or advocating for the individual. And I think another layer that I think is really important to kind of note here is like recognizing that in the birthing room, there's more than one perspective.

and thinking about like like birth trauma and like trauma associated with the NICU happens to partners as well. when I first started my private practice, I went to see my banker and he was like, you do perinatal work. He's like, I will never forget the birth of my child and how different of an experience it was for my wife and me. My wife was like, it was great and wonderful and fine fine. And all I could think was I was seeing her bleed out and dying.

just even thinking about like how that impacts intimacy as well. It's like the partners in our room or birthing individuals are not the only people experiencing these changes in identity and these changes physiologically what is arousing and not arousing, but those who are also present in the room, really

impacted as well.

Megan (22:56)

And

I've even heard the an opposite story where it's like, I watched my partner give birth and it was like so incredible and they were like superhuman and now I'm like really aroused by them and then the partner is like, What? Like that was the worst experience of my life. you know,

Natalie Reiter (23:13)

Yeah.

Megan (23:14)

so it really

Pauline (23:14)

Yeah.

Megan (23:15)

is like this can have completely different perspectives and they're both

Pauline (23:18)

Right. And and

Megan (23:19)

valid.

Pauline (23:20)

yeah, and totally subjective, right? Natalie, you you talked about like watching your wife bleed out. And I'm thinking like the the amount of powerlessness that partner must feel of like this is this vulnerable time and I cannot do a thing to help.

it's

Natalie Reiter (23:39)

Yeah.

Pauline (23:40)

such a such a complicated time for both parents. And you mentioned C section and I know this has come up in my career many times in session. if the birthing person is usually behind a curtain, they can't see what's happening on the other side of the curtain. But the partners can, especially if they like peeked over and there's some

Gory stuff happening on the other side of the curtain, right? They yeah, like they they move they

Natalie Reiter (24:05)

That's a horror scene behind the curtain.

Megan (24:06)

Yeah. It's not like a grab bag and then you pull out a baby.

Pauline (24:11)

move some stuff from the inside outside to make room for them to do their work. I'll leave it at that for anybody who doesn't want the details, and if you do, I'm sure there's another video on YouTube. But peeking over the curtain, like fraught with a little bit of risk.

Natalie Reiter (24:29)

Yep. Yeah. Peeking over the curtain is fraught with risk. and always an experience for the partners who accidentally do like stand up 'cause they're so excited and then they see things that they didn't even want to. And then then Yep.

Pauline (24:42)

Yeah. And then they're like, I can't get that image out of my head.

Megan (24:44)

Can't unsee that.

Yeah.

Pauline (24:46)

If that's you, find an EMDR therapist. We'll help you get that image out of your head.

Natalie Reiter (24:51)

Yes, there we go, exactly.

Megan (24:49)

Yeah well totally.

Well, and then we have to think about too, like societal expectations following that, right? Fathers don't have this expectation that they like are now the provider and need to like support their partner and yet probably d may not see an EMDR therapist to, you know, process that experience. There's all of that aspect as well.

Natalie Reiter (25:17)

Yeah. And I think again, like when we even talk about like intimacy and sex, like we have this assumption that the partner is just ready to go, and that like they're just waiting for like the doctor to sign off and then they're ready to go. When a lot of the times, they're experiencing, you know, exhaustion, identity change, changes in how they view the body of their partner and their own bodies, like they're experiencing those things as well. And they're not.

Megan (25:40)

Depression,

anxiety, you Yeah.

Natalie Reiter (25:41)

Yeah, depression, anxiety, all of the things.

And so they may not be ready either, but that's again like where like the the idea that when we break down intimacy into being about connecting with the person that we're with and understanding we can have this really intimate conversation of how exhausted we are and have that be as fulfilling as a quickie, bringing together that that physical sense of closeness.

that we're seeking, you know, as opposed to having sex that that's not what we're seeking in those moments.

Pauline (26:13)

So what kind of tips do you give to clients who are concerned that intimacy has been lacking? Maybe they recognize that they're not making enough time for their partner and just feel like they're doing the best that they can, but they know

Natalie Reiter (26:32)

Mm-hmm.

Pauline (26:34)

that there's a gap.

Natalie Reiter (26:35)

yeah, I think like challenging them to break it down into like not get into this all or nothing kind of mindset that we get into of like, if I touch their hand, if I give them a hug, that means that we're having sex. Like, can it start with like, let's just sit next to each other on the couch at the same time without a child that is like on top of one of us for three minutes.

and and build from there, especially like in today's society, you know, like a couple generations ago, when individuals had babies, we were born into communities. And so there are multi generational homes and neighborhoods and communities so that, when the birthing parent is is healing

Like there's other people that are able to take care of the laundry and the food and other children and the house and so there's able for reconnection. that doesn't always happen these days. You know, we have a lot more individuals who don't have family for hundreds of miles or are states or half a country or countries away, and we're still expecting them to like have this, you know.

immediate response of like, well everything should feel taken care of and you should just be happy and grateful about your experience.

Megan (27:47)

And stay on top of your laundry

and have this your the cutest clothes on your kids and like and smell and smell good. Come on, Natalie.

Pauline (27:53)

And smell good.

Natalie Reiter (27:53)

Mm-hmm. and smell Take a shower. I know. I'd not

I don't think they had invented dry shampoo at that time, so I was just like whatever.

Pauline (28:06)

Shower together.

Megan (28:06)

Yeah.

Natalie Reiter (28:08)

Shower together, exactly.

Megan (28:09)

If you if

you want to. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Natalie Reiter (28:12)

You know, absolutely. So I th- I I always encourage you know my clients, to work in like three minute scenarios. And actually I talk about that with my clients when who just had kids, period. Like I have a nine and an eleven year old. We are in activity galore season. the likelihood that like my husband and I are having five minutes with each other alone before 10 30 p.m. is almost non-existent.

unless we like explicitly schedule it in. And sometimes that's what you have to do.

Megan (28:41)

think it's a great idea. I know not everybody's cup of tea, but

like I

Natalie Reiter (28:45)

Yeah.

Megan (28:45)

think that it's a great plan for a lot of people is to like schedule it. And they're like, well what that will take the excitement out of it. Well, not any more than not having sex.

Natalie Reiter (28:56)

Mm-hmm. I think scheduling it and like again, like even just scheduling, like let's have a ten minute conversation about our days. I just wanna know who you who you are as a human being now. Like, I do night

Megan (29:06)

Yeah.

Natalie Reiter (29:06)

shift, you do day shift. who are you? What what what shows

are you watching? What books are you reading? What's on your audio what what's in your audible right now? What podcasts are you listening to? are we communicating through memes and what do they mean? Like

Megan (29:20)

Yeah.

Pauline (29:21)

do you name that with both partners? Or like does one go home and say, like, okay, I'm gonna work on sitting next to you for three minutes, but we're not gonna have sex? I can imagine one partner being like, I did my best, I sat with you for three minutes, and the other partner being like, You only gave me three minutes, right? So how do you

Natalie Reiter (29:41)

I think that's really tough when you're not in a couple's, work. And I think like so a lot of the time, you know, a lot of it is building just the basic communication that the one person has, which it actually works really well when we talk about regaining empowerment and advocacy reclaiming and understanding who we are now as individuals post birth, or post pregnancy even,

'Cause not everybody walks away and goes home, you know, with a baby. And so that doesn't mean that that hasn't changed your entire experience of who you are. but it's a great opportunity to be like, you know what? Things can be different. You can change them right now, and we can feel empowered and we can feel like we're taking back some of the control and we can feel like we're getting some of the clarity that we feel like we've lost or have been seeking throughout this experience. there's still time to have some corrective action no matter where you're at on the timeline.

Pauline (30:27)

And that communication between

partners is so important.

Megan (30:32)

And there's also always chore play, right? You were talking about not having the community. And that is something, right? It's like being able what what can we take off? What can we take off out of the mental load so that there can be more room for fun? You know, that's not

Natalie Reiter (30:50)

Yeah.

Megan (30:51)

for nothing.

Natalie Reiter (30:52)

Exactly. Well and just even like like you said again, like like just naming it like how where's the room for fun? And that's a great way to introduce it to your partner is like, I get you want to have fun, I wanna have fun too. Tell me where the room is for it. tell me where the room for making out for five minutes is if there is literally three loads of laundry that have to be done and folded. which one are we giving up? Are we giving up the the idea of laundry, which is also a great thing to break

the cycle of if we're gonna do that, or are we gonna give up the making out? Like or how do we work on it so that it's doesn't feel like a sacrifice either way? Can

Megan (31:22)

Yeah.

Natalie Reiter (31:23)

we make out enfold clothes? There we go.

Megan (31:25)

Mm.

Natalie Reiter (31:26)

Probably I'm sure there's somebody's done it.

Pauline (31:27)

we started this conversation talking about having a baby in the NICU. So like how do we be sexual beings or like be intimate, right? When your baby is, in the hospital, on machines,

Maybe you're in between switching shifts. Maybe you're not even ever together because one person's at the NICU then what?

Natalie Reiter (31:50)

Then I think it comes really back down to that, like, how do I show care and compassion and respect for my partner so that they are in a space that they're even receptive to just the idea of being close to me. it is doing the laundry at home because you spent the whole day at the hospital or I'm gonna pick up supper on the way and I'm gonna pick up your favorite food because I know, you know, this is your favorite and it makes you feel good.

in this time that we feel out of control or I'm gonna make sure that like you have a blanket that feels comfortable or slippers that we can change into because you're worried about contamination or you know we have somebody who can come and do the laundry and just fold it because you're so busy holding all these other things or you're working all day and then coming up to the hospital. So I'm gonna make sure that, you know, you feel like there's somebody who can walk the dog do the dishes at home. You know, it's

It really is about thinking about like care and concern and respect for our partner to build as the foundation of again that intimacy and vulnerability.

Pauline (32:54)

That's the foreplay that starts outside the bedroom.

Natalie Reiter (32:56)

Yeah.

Megan (32:56)

so I I have had a son in the NICU and one of the things that my husband and I I remember us talking about was nobody but us really knows exactly what we're going through. And even then we had different experiences. But that was connective, you know, that like

Natalie Reiter (33:15)

Mm-hmm.

Megan (33:15)

here's this other person that does know how I feel right now.

They're feeling it too and they know how hard this is. And that can bring people together is just by being like, wow, you get it. It's so important to have that be seen by your partner, I think,

Natalie Reiter (33:36)

Something that I've tried to get to work with my clients and I understand like the barriers to it, but is to like have an ongoing journal, especially during the NICU experience, like this is what happened today on your NICU, but having both partners contributing to the journal so that allows you to kind of when you have sometimes the mental space to go back and kind of reprocess the experience, and so even like writing notes to each other if you're not verbally in the same room or like sending texts or sending memes and

attempting to like make some of the the light heartedness

trading these these thoughts back and forth and I think that gives you a basis to build on both in the NICU and when you come out of the NICU to give you the opportunity to discuss what exactly it was the experience for both of you.

Pauline (34:16)

And sometimes

those memories evaporate

Natalie Reiter (34:21)

Mm.

Pauline (34:22)

and you go back and look at it and they're like, I don't remember that at all. Right? We we have

Natalie Reiter (34:27)

Yeah, exactly.

Pauline (34:29)

excellent dissociation skills

Megan (34:31)

Mm-hmm.

Natalie Reiter (34:31)

Mm-hmm.

Pauline (34:32)

to be able to block out traumatic experiences. And so one partner

maybe remembers it and the other partner either doesn't remember it or has a very different recall of the event.

Megan (34:45)

Or can't look at it yet, you know, I think that happens

Natalie Reiter (34:45)

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Megan (34:48)

a lot too. I mean we see it a lot once one partner is like usually the birthing partner has kind of gotten some help and is feeling better, then that's when the other partner starts to feel worse, right? It's like, okay, they held had to hold it- hold it together for a period of time and now they're starting to process what's happened too. Yeah.

Natalie Reiter (35:12)

Yeah, absolutely.

The other thing that I think is important to talk about, especially when we talk about like sex intimacy, with individuals, is what is your chosen form of birth control if you do not want to have another child immediately? Because a lot of times we'll seek comfort through sex. and even if it's been before before the six weeks, or if we're breastfeeding we think like that's a form of birth control or whatever else, and it's like, no. Even

Megan (35:36)

Nope.

Natalie Reiter (35:36)

if you've experienced if infertility in order to get pregnant, like

Every time I have a client who's just given birth, I'm just like, I understand that like you're like three weeks postpartum, but you know, if you're thinking about or going to be having sex, do you want another child right now or a pregnancy right now? if not, you need to talk about what you're doing about that.

Megan (35:57)

I have seen it happen like somebody

Natalie Reiter (35:59)

Yes.

Megan (36:00)

that had infertility had a newborn and literally got pregnant eight weeks after their newborn was born and she was like breastfeeding everything never got their period

Pauline (36:12)

Yep, you are.

Natalie Reiter (36:12)

Yeah, there's some people

who just don't get it back because they're pregnant again.

Pauline (36:16)

Yeah, and it's it's a pretty fertile time.

Natalie Reiter (36:20)

Yes.

And I think like that can like really like especially if you have an experience of trauma or it you know, that is like can be like just traumatic in and of itself, is being like, wait a minute. This was I was connected with my partner, this is a source support, this is something I was enjoying, and now all of a sudden I'm in a situation in which I wasn't prepared for.

Megan (36:40)

Or having multiples. Like

Natalie Reiter (36:42)

Yes.

Megan (36:43)

there are things that can be viewed as blessings and traumatic at the same time.

Natalie Reiter (36:49)

Yes.

Megan (36:49)

My twin brother and I were born when my older brother was 18 months old. I know that was traumatic for her.

Pauline (36:55)

Ha ha

Megan (36:56)

I can guarantee it. She pretends

Natalie Reiter (36:58)

Yes.

Megan (36:59)

that she is like there was this conversation about her calling my mom when she her mom when she found out she was pregnant with twins, weeks before we were born, because I'm old,

My grandmother would always say, like, I cried she was crying on the phone and my mom says, I was crying tears of joy and I was like, No, you weren't. There's no way. Like that must have been terrifying. Ugh.

Natalie Reiter (37:22)

Yeah,

y yep.

Pauline (37:24)

And two things can be

true at the same time, Megan. They

Megan (37:26)

Yes.

Pauline (37:26)

were probably tears of joy and she was terrified.

Megan (37:31)

Yes.

Natalie Reiter (37:32)

I feel that way just hearing the story and being like

Megan (37:34)

I mean,

I look like now I'm like, ugh, I can't even imagine. I can't even imagine. And yet there are some people do it wonderfully. I'm just not one of those people.

So if somebody is listening to this and their experience with pregnancy, birth, postpartum didn't go as planned, noticing some challenges that are happening in their relationship and really are like looking for a way to make it better. What's the one thing that you would what's one thing you would tell them?

Natalie Reiter (38:07)

Start small. Small acts, small conversations, small touches, small bites, start small.

Pauline (38:15)

need you to elaborate on the small bite.

I'm kidding, just kidding. You all out there can use your own imagination.

Natalie Reiter (38:25)

Hey, everybody loves a little nibble, you know.

Megan (38:27)

Yeah. Natalie, this has been so great having you on. Thank you for joining us.

Natalie Reiter (38:31)

Yes, thank you for having me.

Megan (38:33)

And we'll see you at a conference pretty soon, I guess. Maybe this year.

Natalie Reiter (38:36)

Yeah, hopefully.

Megan (38:37)

Yeah.

Pauline (38:38)

And if you're still with us, thank you for listening and come back 'cause there's more where that came from.