Pauline (00:41)

Hello and welcome back. I am Pauline Walfisch and I am here with not just one Megan today, but two Megans today. And I am simultaneously

I'm simultaneously lucky and tortured. Maybe one of the Megans will explain to you how that's possible. But I'm going to start it off by introducing my faithful co-host, Megan Nelson. Welcome.

Megan (01:10)

Thank you. I'm excited to be back.

Today we have the other Megan, known as the OG Megan. Megan Farina is a New York State licensed clinical social worker with a master's degree in social work. She has extensive experience supporting individuals through life's most vulnerable moments, including being new parents and adjusting to the challenges of parenthood. She is a certified perinatal mental health clinician and is certified in EMDR.

is trained in DBT and cognitive behavior therapy for insomnia and today Megan is here with us to talk about dialectical behavior therapy with parents. Welcome! It's so nice to have another Megan. I think we should all be Megan's.

Megan (01:58)

think this is the first time in my entire life that I've had more than one Megan in a room. There were no Megan's when I was a kid. It was torture, talking about torture.

Megan (02:06)

See there were five Megans in my ninth grade course class and I was like, ugh.

Pauline (02:11)

was the only Pauline but I will say in a room full of Megan's be a Pauline.

Megan (02:17)

hahahaha

Absolutely.

Pauline (02:20)

We get to all be ourselves and these are definitely two of my favorite Megans. Megan Farina and I have ⁓ known each other for a very long time, including when I voted for her to be nominated and win Social Worker of the Year. So occasionally I call her Swoty and she cringes every time.

Megan (02:47)

Yes. Thank you for having me. I had an actual award, yes. Yeah, was a nice honor.

Megan (02:47)

Do you have an actual award for social work?

Pauline (02:53)

Thank you.

And a well-deserved one. And just the first of many times where I got to torture you and make you feel uncomfortable. So it was just the beginning. Little did we know.

Megan (02:57)

Thank you.

Yes. I'm clipping now.

Pauline (03:09)

So

Megan Farina ⁓ has confessed that she was dreading being here today, but I just want to clarify for anybody listening, nobody forced you to be here. Is that correct? Can you confirm this?

Megan (03:22)

No, I was not forced.

I was not forced. I like to say yes and push myself outside my comfort zone sometimes and this is an example of that.

Pauline (03:32)

It

is, it is. Because I think when we asked you the first time, you were like, hell no, I don't think there's anything I would want to do less than being on a podcast. And then when you heard it was video, not just audio, you were like, ⁓ for sure, I don't want to do that. That's not fair, because I don't think I even asked again.

Megan (03:41)

True. Yes. Yes.

but you're persistent.

You just got

the other one to ask. Yeah, I know. I know how she works.

Megan (03:59)

Yeah, that's she does, you know.

Pauline (04:03)

Teamwork.

Teamwork.

Megan (04:07)

I think you said like, I'll think about it. And I was like, I'll take that as a maybe.

Megan (04:12)

Yes. Yeah.

Pauline (04:14)

And then,

bing, in my mailbox there was a Megan signed herself up for a recording.

Megan (04:21)

Yes, here I am. Thank you for having me. Isn't that what I'm supposed to say? Yeah.

Pauline (04:23)

Yeah. Or you

can say, what do you want from me now? ⁓

Megan (04:30)

Yes,

Megan (04:31)

A little behavioral activation, right? It's like you do it and then wait for the motivation to come later.

Megan (04:31)

let's do it. It is. Yes, it's skill. It's a skill in the therapy I'm going to talk about right now.

Megan (04:40)

you

Pauline (04:40)

Yeah.

And that, mean, that that's literally what this podcast is about, right? It's like how we how we do these things in our own lives, like how we didn't know that we needed them or how we learn them and then how they how they show up. So like, how did you actually schedule this? Like, how are you here?

Megan (04:56)

Mm-hmm.

I mean, again, I like to push myself and do things that are uncomfortable that are going to be good for me and good experiences. also probably number one is sharing the information that I have with other people on probably the most important therapy that I've ever learned personally and professionally that I use every day in my life.

Pauline (05:23)

Yeah.

So I guess tell us like a little bit about why it's, either why it's the most important or what do you mean personally and professionally?

Megan (05:37)

Well, it's kind of funny. My experience with DBT started when my daughter was a teenager and she was really being a teenager.

Pauline (05:45)

I understand that

experience.

Megan (05:48)

And she ended up in a GBT program. And because she was an adolescent, they required the parents to do it also. And you would think that that would click for me as to why I was being required to do it. But for some reason, it didn't. I was doing it because she needed it.

Pauline (06:06)

Well, I think parents

are so much more likely to do something when it's for their child than when they're going to do it for themselves.

Megan (06:14)

for sure. And she's 26 now and we laugh about it. Remember when we all needed DBT? But that was my first experience with DBT. And then I was working on an inpatient women's unit for many years and the hospital decided to change it into a DBT, focused unit for women with trauma and perinatal mental health.

sent us for all the training. had intensive training through Marsha Linehan's company. She's the developer of DBT. And at the time I was...

I remember a lot of eye rolls and lot of willfulness from me. I'm just admitting that which is a thing that we we focus on and identify in DBT. I didn't think it was gonna work for me. I was high strong and my entire life I was high strong. I was a kid with, you know, stomach aches and headaches and nervous and so I just took that right into motherhood.

Megan (06:50)

you

Pauline (06:54)

Thank

Megan (07:09)

By the time I learned DBT, my kids were a little older. But it was, you know, still helpful.

Pauline (07:16)

So the first time you learned it or got trained in it was actually as a participant, not as a professional.

Megan (07:22)

Yes.

Yeah, as a participant with her when she was a teenager and then years later, a few years later as a professional. even as the professional, was like, I can't do this. I'm high strung My anxiety, I'm too anxious to do this. I remember saying that to the rest of the team that we were doing it together and it was a great experience, but it definitely took time for me to.

Pauline (07:30)

So you've been on both sides.

Megan (07:48)

for it to really integrate and for me to get it. And like time, mean probably a few years. So looking back now, I'm so grateful that I had that experience.

Pauline (07:55)

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I know this from not being on a DBT team, but supporting a DBT team that part of practicing DBT or being on a like a comprehensive team is that your team meetings are using the DBT skills, right? So like you would meet every week, talk about clients, but the beginning of that meeting would be like a mindfulness exercise or some DBT

Megan (08:27)

Yeah, yeah, are different

elements of a structure like DBT is.

Megan (08:31)

Can we take a second to talk about what is DBT? What are components of it?

Megan (08:34)

Yes.

Yeah, great. So it's dialectical behavioral therapy. It is a type of cognitive behavioral therapy that adds validation and compassion, which I think is just so like I just got goosebumps. I just I love it. And it teaches specific skills. It's a little different than other types of therapies, focuses on four different areas. One is mindfulness. So the ability to just be where I am in this moment.

without wishing it were different, without judging it as right or wrong, good or bad, without attaching too much meaning to it. And the second one is distress tolerance. So how do I tolerate distress when I'm in a difficult situation that I can't make better right now?

without making it worse for myself. And one is emotion regulation. So how do I kind of stay in that window of tolerance, that place, that sweet spot where I'm emotionally and physically regulated, where I feel good, I can take information in and out, participate in a way that feels okay. And then the last one is interpersonal effectiveness.

And that's communication. How do I say no when I want to? How do I ask for what I need in such a way that increases my chances of getting it? So four just really important areas. Initially, DBT focused on people with borderline personality disorder who are maybe chronically suicidal or self-injurious. But since that time has really...

spread out and now is applied to all sorts of issues. And I think it's good for almost everybody.

Pauline (10:08)

Yeah, I mean, I have a hard time thinking about anybody who wouldn't benefit from knowing what the skills are, being effective interpersonally, being able to tolerate distress, being mindful and present. Like those are things that we all. I don't like to use the word should, but those are things that we all need to do at different times in our lives.

Megan (10:33)

Yeah, life can be hard. There are challenges and lot of twists and turns. And a lot of times things don't work out the way we thought they would or wish they would. And using some of these skills, I think, can be super helpful.

Megan (10:33)

you, Bennett.

Pauline (10:44)

Yeah.

What's the word dialectic mean?

Megan (10:48)

So in.

Megan (10:51)

So it's like two opposing things, right? So there can be two realities, two kind of seemingly opposite things that are true at the same time. So I love my parents and some of their decisions hurt me.

I love being a mother and some days it sucks, right? I believe in myself and I have a lot of doubt.

Just a couple of examples, I could go on and on for the rest of the.

Pauline (11:14)

Yeah, I mean.

Yeah, I was

just thinking like I could think of like so many examples. I really want to be a mom and I don't want to give up my freedom. Right or.

Megan (11:26)

Mm-hmm.

Megan (11:28)

I think this

can be so powerful, especially with new moms, I mean, with anyone, like you said, but with new moms where there's this expectation that you should feel one way and they...

to and also all of these other feelings as well. I love my baby and I feel extremely overwhelmed and sometimes I get angry. Right? And so it's being able to instead of push down the part that seems unpleasant, it's to be able to hold it all and say it's okay.

Megan (12:01)

Yeah, it's the both

and. Like you get rid of that butt. It's just the both and.

And I really could have used that as a mother. I like I said, I took my childhood anxiety straight into motherhood. So I remember being so anxious throughout my pregnancy that I told my husband, I will never do this again. If this is what it's like, I'll I was just felt tortured by anxiety and I didn't know what to do about it. And so it's really interesting to be in my position now at my age now.

and looking back and helping other clients from before they get pregnant and during the pregnancy and during the postpartum period and after. And when they have teenage girls, you know, and boys, but. also.

Pauline (12:44)

Yes, I have been known to go to Megan for some like, how the hell did you

Megan (12:44)

Bye.

Pauline (12:49)

do this?

Megan (12:50)

you ⁓

Megan (12:51)

Yeah.

Uh-huh. And also, I just have become a lot more relational as a therapist over the years. And so I am OK sharing when it's appropriate for the client and when I think it will be helpful. I mean, I do DBT with clients, with all my clients, probably every client. It comes up in some way, right? It's kind of who I am now.

Megan (12:57)

you

Pauline (13:08)

We'll have it.

Right. It's not so much doing DBT, it's just being DBT.

Megan (13:14)

Yeah,

yeah, yeah, and I have clients in their, I've had clients in their 70s, so I'm using DBT in the sessions well.

My own husband is know, spouting DBT to me. Both and, you know, get out of the black and white, the extreme thinking, the all or nothing thinking, get to the gray, the middle path. It's really interesting to see.

Pauline (13:35)

Yeah.

I love when I teach somebody the both and or like to replace the but with and right? Like I love my kid, but I'm so tired. Like one doesn't negate the other, right? You can be both. And then they come back and they're like, I used what you told me. I kept saying and And sometimes they'll correct me. Like I'll say something, they'll be like, Pauline,

Megan (13:51)

Yeah.

Pauline (14:02)

You mean N, doesn't like it.

Megan (14:04)

I mean, it's the improv, right? It's the improv, the yes and, that when you say no but, it stops the energy, it the momentum, and the yes and can continue the conversation, can be built upon, can hold everything and move, right?

Megan (14:13)

Yeah.

Yeah, the no-butt invalidates experiences. So I would just love to make space for her.

Megan (14:29)

What would you say is one of the most valuable skills that comes from DBTs that parents could use to improve their relationship and their parenting experience?

Megan (14:39)

Wow, it's hard to choose just one because there's so many different things that happen that I hear from clients. Probably, I guess if I had to choose one, would be radical acceptance. It's kind of what it sounds like. Yeah, it's pretty much what it sounds like. It is accepting a reality completely, like mind, body, soul.

Pauline (14:50)

Can you describe that now?

Megan (15:00)

It's not saying that it was okay what happened. It's not saying I liked what happened, but it's saying this is what happened, right? This is as it.

So when things happen that don't fit what we thought was going to happen, that really can throw us into distress and misery, bringing that in can, I think, of lighten things.

For example, with our clients, I didn't have the pregnancies that I wanted or the delivery that I wanted, right? Or I didn't have the childhood I wanted. I had an abusive childhood.

your trauma band-aid more than that, you know, or just realities that are, that might be in a marriage, you know. I have a first responder who works

kids all the time or this is not what I thought my life would be. I didn't even want to be a mother. How the hell am here with two or three kids?

This is the reality that's there. And if I can accept it, then...

Pauline (15:58)

And it's not

just accepting things that have happened. It might be accepting things that are currently happening.

Megan (16:03)

Yeah, yeah. And if I can do that, the hope is that my distress decreases. And I've seen it a million times. And is it easy? No, it's not easy. A lot of DBT sounds very simple. And that can land on clients in not a great way. You're telling me to just accept what just the traumatic birth is? Yeah.

Megan (16:11)

Yeah.

Pauline (16:26)

Just get over it.

Megan (16:28)

where it's like, I'm trying to accept it. I'm trying really hard to accept this, right? It can be hard.

Megan (16:28)

And it's.

Yeah, yeah.

And I facilitate DBT groups. And one of the things I say in there is even just being here and asking questions and saying, like, I'm not really sure I even want to do that. That's something that's something on the path to radical acceptance. And that's and that's welcome. I welcome that. And we can talk about it. And it can be there. Right. I want it. I want to accept my reality. And I just can't right now. OK. Right.

Megan (16:56)

Tara Brock says in the radical acceptance, just the hand on the heart and yes. Okay, yep, yep, yep, okay,

Megan (17:01)

Yeah, yeah, I do that all the time in sessions. Didn't you just feel that shift in your body?

It's amazing. And there's a DBT skill too. It's half smile, willing hands. When I'm feeling willful or I'm in a meeting that's agitating me or my kids are screaming at the bewitching hour. It's just half smile, willing hands.

Megan (17:21)

I didn't know the name of that. So I learned that 30 years ago, a teacher taught me, a random teacher taught me, and I do it on an airplane when we take off. Because it always used to cause a panic in me and they were like, just wrist open up to the sky every time on the airplane and it just immediately.

Megan (17:38)

Yeah.

Pauline (17:41)

Let me see tonight. Can you show me like.

Megan (17:44)

just

yeah, palms up and they can be on your lap or next to you. You can't tell that I'm doing it right now. I could be in a family therapy session, a couples therapy session with my spouse or my mother-in-law. I could be in a meeting at work that's really difficult. give my clients a lot of examples, but it's palms up and then you just half smile, just a fairly smile.

Sit in that for a minute and it's like your brain is telling your body.

I'm here just feeling it, you know? So, and again, it took years, you know, it took a lot of practice until it

Pauline (18:19)

Yeah, I give this example often when we talk about like practicing a skill until it becomes natural. Like that if you walk across a lawn the same place every day, if you walk across a lawn once, nobody will even notice. But if you walk across that lawn the same place every day, slowly it starts to... ⁓

build a little path and the grass takes shape under your feet, under your feet. And then when people come to visit, they don't wonder where they should walk. They just naturally go where the path is already built.

Megan (18:58)

Yes, I use that with the ski slope metaphor. You're going down the trail for the first time and it's like there's tons of snow and there's nothing. And then the more you go down, the more you go down, then it's like, it's just easy, right? It's all there. And so that's how.

Pauline (19:01)

Yeah.

And you probably don't even have to consciously think about doing it anymore. It just comes naturally to you.

Megan (19:19)

It does. It does. You know, I just lost my father, as you both know, and immediately, yeah, thank you, immediately, my DBT comes right up. It just naturally does. It's like, people are asking, yeah, you know what, I am grieving, and I am very grateful. And they're both there. And it's just, so yeah, it's complete. It's natural and automatic.

Megan (19:43)

And that's really encompassing the authentic experience that you're having. not, I think sometimes when we say part of what we're experiencing, the other part, right, doesn't have a path to go and that can feel like that's not everything. That doesn't feel authentic maybe.

Megan (19:55)

Yeah.

Megan (20:01)

Can you talk a little bit about the self-compassion aspect?

Megan (20:05)

I mean, yeah, it's, know, the compassionate validation is kind of the, you know, the DBT therapist kind of puts that in the sessions. It's a relationship back and forth, practicing that, mirroring that.

Pauline (20:18)

It's not like what's wrong with you.

Megan (20:20)

Yeah, no, it's like, let's just, yeah, let's look at what's there without judgment using our mindfulness skills. This is what's coming out for this is what I'm noticing. And talking about self-compassion, which some of our clients have never heard of, used, don't even know what it means, or think it means something other than it does. Like then I'm excusing myself, I'm being weak, I'm all the things, you know, but what happens when you practice self-compassion, especially as a parent?

or during your pregnancy, or if you are the non-birthing partner, right, who's having a tough time, maybe, you know, because you're not caring, or because you're a father who doesn't have the same experience. I think...

Pauline (21:03)

And so many people

were raised without being taught self-compassion and being raised in a generation where it was like, suck it up. Put on your big girl panties and deal with it, right? Or, yeah, that's life.

Megan (21:17)

or it's selfish, or yeah.

Megan (21:18)

That's like, you know,

yeah. I remember my first OB, my first pregnancy, and I was really sick and feeling miserable. And she said, that's pregnancy. And I mean, how invalidating. It's true.

Pauline (21:31)

Yeah, and she probably, to be fair,

right? She probably thought she was validating you. Like, yeah, you feel sick because you're pregnant.

Megan (21:36)

Probably. Maybe.

Oh yeah, it just felt terrible. So, yeah, so the validation would be, yeah, of course you are. I can tell it sounds really hard. This part of pregnancy is hard or your experience is difficult right now. I see that. Let's make space for it. It's okay.

Pauline (21:53)

And it's not validating something that's not true.

Megan (21:56)

For sure. Although I can think, and I do this with couples, with postpartum couples or even later, I can think in my head, why is my spouse talking about this again? And I still can validate, I know that's hard for you. I know this is a really hard issue for you.

Pauline (22:14)

Right. Even when it's not your fault or you don't believe it or it's not bothering you, the validation is in that the other person is feeling that way. Right, I can see that this is something that really is upsetting to you.

Megan (22:16)

Thank you.

Megan (22:32)

Yeah, and I mean, our new moms, you we work with lots of new moms and the lack of self-compassion sometimes is very painful to witness, you know, when they're doing the best they can.

Megan (22:42)

was just thinking of

working, it wasn't here, but an older gentleman who had a long

life of substance use and a lot of self-hatred. He was doing very well in his recovery, but he couldn't quite get past, get to the self-compassion state. But he loved his grandchildren. And that was the in He was like, how do want your grandson to feel about himself?

And it's like, do you think you could maybe, knowing that you're someone's grandson, you would, but maybe you could borrow some of that for a little time. And that was really the first time you could say, okay, I think I get it.

Bye.

Pauline (23:25)

Those

DBT skills come in handy so often. I I opened up this session saying like, you were dreading being here.

Megan (23:36)

Yeah, I was a little willful, like, ⁓ this is not, I don't like to do this, this isn't for me, whatever. A little willful, and so, and just kind of giving into that, right? And in DBT, there's an opposite action skill, which is like behavioral activation. I want to say no to this, and I'm gonna do it, right?

Pauline (23:58)

which is not the same as people pleasing, right? Like it's not the same as like saying yes when you really want to say no.

Megan (24:01)

Yeah.

Pauline (24:06)

how did you use the opposite action skill to be here today?

Megan (24:11)

Yeah, I I wanted to just say no. This isn't who I am. And I kind of checked in with myself and challenged myself a little bit and was able to identify the benefits in doing this.

That's what got me here.

Pauline (24:24)

Yeah. ⁓

Megan (24:25)

You know, overarching

goal of DBT is really to create a life worth living. Right? And so there's, you know, there's pieces of it about trying new things. You know, doing something different.

Pauline (24:36)

It's funny somebody else who we had on a podcast was like, it was on my list of things I was going to do in 2026. Like it was one of my goals be on a podcast. Like I did it. Right. And for you, like that was not one of your goals.

Megan (24:51)

now.

Megan (24:52)

I

was not on your list of things to do in 2026.

Megan (24:55)

No, but here I am.

Pauline (24:57)

But here you are. And helping people was on your list.

Megan (25:00)

Helping people is always on my list. Yes, my whole life, Yeah. ⁓

Pauline (25:05)

at. Helping

people, teaching DBT, practicing DBT, making the world a more mindful place.

Megan (25:15)

hopefully, one planet at a time.

Pauline (25:17)

Yeah, sometimes one minute at a time.

Megan (25:20)

One of the things I heard you say a few years ago around DBT that has really stuck with me is you ask your clients to bring their sense of humor. Do you remember that? And maybe it was an exercise specifically, but I just like, it never occurred to me. I don't know why. Just say, see if you can bring your sense of humor along.

Megan (25:30)

Hmm. Yeah.

Yeah, I don't remember that. I wonder, I guess I must have been meeting with a group of you, right? Yeah, I don't know, but there is a part in DBT that I like, you know, once the relationship is developed, obviously, which is use of irreverence in DBT, right? Like the DBT therapist sometimes is irreverent. if you're my client and you're saying something that's not helpful or not true or

whatever, might like...

Pauline (26:09)

The face. My kids would call it the look

Megan (26:09)

you

Megan (26:12)

Yeah, or, yeah, I think you really should, yeah, quit your job right now today without having another, whatever it is. And they laugh, and it's a moment, and that's, you know.

Megan (26:16)

you

Pauline (26:23)

Yeah, it's sort of

like last night when I texted you if you wanted to talk about the podcast and your response was, I think I'm getting sick. And I said, it's probably just the oysters. See you tomorrow. Kind of like that in reverence.

Megan (26:30)

Yeah, yeah.

yes. Yeah, yeah, I do love oysters, yeah.

Megan (26:34)

you

Pauline (26:39)

Yeah.

Megan (26:40)

I know, think it lends to my personality actually too. You I just, you know, I don't know.

Pauline (26:45)

No, I mean that totally makes...

Megan (26:45)

It was a nice invitation.

Pauline (26:47)

I'm also ⁓ a sarcastic person. I did read that it's a sign of higher intellect, so I'm going with that. ⁓

Megan (26:53)

Obviously.

Megan (26:54)

Go with that.

Pauline (26:56)

But it comes, I use it a lot in sessions because like one, can't always be so damn serious all the time. And sometimes like we're really talking about serious stuff. And then obviously like I can contain that. And then sometimes it just kind of lightens.

Megan (27:10)

Yeah.

Pauline (27:13)

the energy in the room just for a second, or it takes somebody out of their like emotional brain and are like, ⁓ right, that sounds kind of crazy, right? Like, yeah, you should totally put your job and run away.

Megan (27:15)

you

good.

Megan (27:24)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Or rational brain. This is another DBT thing, right? It's like two different, the parts of your brain and one is like run all by emotions, right? It can be impulsive and all of that. And then one is the rational brain. It's all like facts and da da da da. And we want the middle path of that, right? We want the wise mind, which is kind of the synthesis of both of those things. Making space for compromise.

you know, kind of more psychological flexibility that we all...

that I also love.

Pauline (28:00)

Yeah, yeah. There are certain times in your life where one really serves you, like you really want to be emotional or you really want to be logical, but most of the time you're aiming for that sweet spot in between makes life worth living.

Megan (28:15)

everything.

Pauline (28:16)

So how torturous was this for you today? Now that we're, you know, few. Yeah, are you glad? Glad you're here.

Megan (28:21)

It was really fine.

Megan (28:25)

to do it.

Megan (28:27)

I

am glad I'm here. Yes, I believe in DBT. I do like to share with people.

Pauline (28:33)

So this ⁓ is the What No Mom Told You podcast, right? So stories inspired by the things you had to learn yourself along the way. So how would you describe what your No Mom Told You was about DBT?

Megan (28:50)

Yeah.

No mom told me that I didn't have to be like an anxious, high, strong, emotionally dysregulated at times parent. I had agency there and there was something that could help me. My kids still laugh about, do you remember when mom was crazy? But it's all about that. It's all about that. So no one told me.

Pauline (29:11)

Thank

Eventually they talk

about it in the past tense like you're not crazy anymore. This is hopeful for me,

Megan (29:19)

Yes, yes, for sure. Yeah.

Megan (29:22)

you

Megan (29:24)

Yeah. then NoMOM told me that I would be in my, you know, middle 50s and I would be doing a podcast about how DBT can help perinatal mental health. So

Megan (29:36)

you

Megan (29:39)

I'm at the stage of my life where I'm really kind of reflecting and just what's really important to me and looking back over the course of my life and just feel it's just the work I'm doing and it's such a gift. Being able to kind of help my clients break some generational distress, trauma, dysregulation and

I had one mom say recently, no one told me that I would be responsible for like the climate, say that the regulation of the family every day. And it's unfair. And it's true. said, you know, I was like, yeah, both and right. And so, yeah, all of that.

Pauline (30:29)

Yeah. Yeah. And that there are things that you can do to make a difference. Make it easier. And like you said, DBT is based on building a life worth living. So yes, those kids are annoying and challenging and they make our lives better in ways. ⁓

Megan (30:48)

Yes. Yeah.

Megan (30:49)

Yeah, you're a trader. Yeah.

Lend them out.

Pauline (30:53)

Some days, some days I would try them, but not most days.

Yeah. Well, Megan, thank you for, you know, leaning into your discomfort and being here today. We'll be sure to zoom right in on you for the edited version.

Megan (31:11)

Great.

Whatever, do whatever you want now, now that it's done. No, thank you so much for having me. I'm proud of both of you for doing this. I think it's really great. And so, I mean, how could I say no?

Pauline (31:13)

you

Megan (31:21)

Thank

Pauline (31:22)

and we're proud of you and really grateful that you would share your knowledge with the world and all of our listeners out there.

Megan (31:30)

Thank you, Megan.

Pauline (31:32)

Thank you very much and we may have you back another day. Until then, see you all next week.

Megan (31:37)

We'll see. I won't say no. Okay.

Bye.

Megan (31:43)

Bye everyone.