Lauren (00:00)

it is like someone died. You're losing that identity that you had and that person and that whole

Megan (00:06)

Yeah.

Lauren (00:07)

idea

Pauline (00:07)

Yeah.

Lauren (00:07)

of what your you envision for your life is now gone. And now you're going to also say that I cannot keep those

embryos which I felt was a part of me and my son.

every part of my life that I envisioned is now gone.

Pauline (00:43)

Hello everybody and welcome back. I'm Pauline Walfisch and I am excited to be here today with my faithful co-host Megan Nelson, do you wanna introduce our guest today?

Megan (00:56)

Yes, today we have Lauren Devins. She's a psychiatric nurse practitioner that specializes in women's wellness, postpartum challenges, and fertility.

maternal mental health, all the things that we feel so passionate about. And today Lauren's agreed to come and talk to us about her own lived experience, about navigating divorce after infertility and infertility treatment and becoming a single parent when she least expected it. So Lauren, thank you so much for

Lauren (01:28)

Thank you for having me.

Megan (01:29)

Yeah.

Pauline (01:30)

So Lauren and I go way back. I knew Lauren when she was not divorced and actually quite married and trying to figure out how to build her family. So we got to work together in a professional capacity, but also had some friendship and personal conversations about growing.

Growing families. And then

our careers took slightly different paths that separated us a little bit. And in that time, your whole life flipped around.

Lauren (02:04)

Changed. Yeah.

Pauline (02:07)

So tell us, like, just give us the the the cliff notes up to there. Like, you know, it's your story, so I don't want to share it, but like how'd that young man come into your life?

Lauren (02:18)

Yes. So ironically enough, I started having some infertility issues. We were trying naturally. my GYN said, you know, this is normal, it's taking a while, yada yada. feels

Pauline (02:33)

Feels like for ever.

Lauren (02:35)

like forever. It was almost a year.

and I did get pregnant naturally and I had an early miscarriage and at that time that's probably when I started working in the perineatal clinic. So all this stuff was going on, and then I was working with patients experiencing similar things and staff that may have gone through it as well. So it was a very interesting time, but I had a lot of resources like Pauline to kind of

Reach out to and say, Well, what should I do next? You know, and the doctors were still saying, Well, you know, you have time, try again naturally. But I just felt like something was off. so I did reach out to a reproductive endocrinologist, and that started a two, three-year journey before I actually got pregnant with my son, who's going to be 10 years old now in November. Yeah.

Pauline (03:28)

Yeah.

And we hear that all the time from women. Like everybody was like, just wait, just wait, just keep trying.

Lauren (03:34)

Right.

Pauline (03:35)

And like I just knew that there was something not right.

So I'm a big

believer in like trust trust your gut.

Lauren (03:45)

Trust your God.

Trust your gut and just ask a lot of questions and take it upon yourself to kind of do that because I was young. I was only 31 at the time. I had no history of any type of like PCOS or anything that was medically I had been relatively healthy and no issues otherwise. so one would think, well, why what's the problem? But there's so

Many other issues in the fertility world that, your average person and even me as a nurse and a nurse practitioner did not really know because it wasn't really my scope of practice at the time. But it did take a long time. We did several what's called IUIs prior to IVF.

I had another early miscarriage during that time. So dealing with loss and really feeling af I think after the second miscarriage I really developed a lot of depression and anxiety and just not understanding why this was happening

and what was going

Pauline (04:47)

Yeah.

Lauren (04:47)

on. Yeah.

Megan (04:49)

And there's you know, we've talked about this, but like with ongoing infertility, people will say, If I just knew it was gonna be two years, okay, I can handle

Lauren (04:59)

Right.

Megan (04:59)

it. But it's that uncertainty, like you don't know how long it's gonna take. You don't know every time there's a pregnancy, is this going to be successful? Is this gonna

Lauren (05:10)

Exactly, exactly.

And when unfortunately if you are going through those early losses or a loss, it makes you really anxious about your future and what what that will look like w if and when you do conceive.

Yeah, I think after the second time, because everyone, you know, your friends, even the doctors, it's very normal to have an early miscarriage. Many women have this. r one in four.

Pauline (05:34)

One in four. One in four pregnancies.

Lauren (05:38)

Right? So it's more common than we know and talk about. but then when the second time happened, then I was like, okay, well now I'm skeptical about this whole process,

Pauline (05:48)

And you know, what's interesting, and I I think I recognized this at the time when we were working together, and I think just as my career has advanced, I'm I'm more and more aware of it. But how hard it is to be a perinatal provider while you are in the reproductive years, right? Whether you are pregnant or postpartum or going through infertility. You know, I got into this work after my family was

really built, but for a lot of perinatal providers, like they're still in that. And so I'm just thinking now about how hard that was for you to be sitting with people, helping them, listening to the best stories and the worst stories, and also

Lauren (06:36)

yeah.

Pauline (06:37)

having your own.

Lauren (06:38)

Right. And it's this this feeling of mixed feelings of you know, you hear a story of a patient that is a worse situation than you had, or someone that's in a better situation, and it's very hard

Megan (06:52)

Or just the amount, like does this happen to everyone all the time? Yeah.

Lauren (06:54)

Right, right.

And the transference and all of that. I remember specifically like at the end of my workday, sitting in your office, because you were always like working late, right? And going into your office and like almost crying at the end of the day, like

Pauline (07:08)

That might not have changed very much, Lauren.

Lauren (07:12)

But like after seeing all the patients and like after having my day, then kind of debriefing with you and going into your office and kind of having my little mini meltdown. And you were so great with me, you know. Like one day at a time. you were my cheerleader, but also like get yourself together too. like let's not catastrophize everything that's happening right now, you know. And let's do one thing at a

Pauline (07:32)

Yeah, yeah.

Lauren (07:33)

time and you know, ask the questions and reach out for support.

Pauline (07:38)

Yeah. And it's so important to have that. I mean, whether it's fertility or divorce, which we're gonna talk about, you

Lauren (07:45)

Yeah.

Pauline (07:46)

know, like you're you're holding a lot of stuff. And at the end

Lauren (07:50)

Yeah.

Pauline (07:50)

of the day, sometimes you just need a trusted person to be able

Lauren (07:53)

Definitely.

Pauline (07:54)

to unpack it with

Lauren (07:57)

Yeah, I mean

When we, you know, talking about the divorce, I think, although I don't believe that infertility was, you know, the ultimate cause of us separating, I think back to after I had those early miscarriages and I really was shutting down and not really communicating to my partner, my husband, what I was really going through because I felt like no one could possibly understand this pain and and what I'm going through.

Sure, that they that he felt the same way. And I look back and I say, you know, how great is it that there are now services for couples and couples therapy and couples groups and men's groups and women's groups and different things because we really didn't explore that. I think it was so devastating for me that I didn't really communicate.

Pauline (08:50)

Yeah.

Megan (08:51)

It is so tricky

too because

it is your body going through treatment. And so there is it is a different experience for you than it was for him.

Lauren (09:01)

Totally.

Megan (09:02)

And that can be really difficult on both sides.

Lauren (09:06)

Yeah. I think he had difficulty

with that too, but we didn't want to then add to my plate. because then I also working with patients, various types of patients and patients going through it as well. And I think I was trying to just be really brave and strong and you know, not really talk about it, which was a mistake. It was really important to reach out and speak about it.

Pauline (09:31)

Yeah, and that happens for couples a lot, you know, like you're having a good day, I don't wanna bring it up. Or I'm having

Lauren (09:37)

Right.

Pauline (09:38)

a bad day, I don't wanna make your day worse.

Lauren (09:40)

Yeah.

Pauline (09:40)

And so people withdraw during the time where you really need each other the most.

Lauren (09:47)

Most.

Pauline (09:47)

But there's so

much like I need to protect you from my feelings, or I don't want you to know how much I'm struggling. I don't wanna be judged, I don't

Want you to treat me differently, right? And then so people just pull apart instead of huddling together. And you know, that may not have been the reason for your

Lauren (10:06)

Right.

Pauline (10:09)

divorce, but lots of relationships

are very challenged during family building and specifically infertility.

Lauren (10:17)

it was like an elephant in the room that no one really wanted to talk about

because I felt a lot of isolation and I'm I mean I'm sure he did too, but you know all of our friends are having babies and you know we were in that age group of where people got married and the next step was family building and things like that. And

going to sh baby showers and I felt just very isolated but also felt like if I say these things is he gonna think that I'm really like

losing my mind or something

that I

Megan (10:47)

Don't want to see your friends.

Lauren (10:49)

that I don't

Megan (10:49)

Yeah.

Lauren (10:50)

want to go to the baby shower

or it's it's it I'm up I'm sad about it. Right, right. And so you really just don't you feel like these emotions that I've never felt before in my life.

of like envy or this or that and just like was so uncomfortable to feel

like that's just not me, you know?

Megan (11:08)

So then IVF was successful.

Lauren (11:10)

Right. Exactly.

so we were very lucky that on the first retrieval, we did a tra a frozen transfer and my little Jack is a little

frozen embryo and he's now almost ten.

Pauline (11:24)

It's been so fun to watch him grow on on social media

and see that little frosty baby turning into a ten year old.

Lauren (11:31)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

really it's incredible. It really is incredible.

Megan (11:37)

speaking of this, like the frosty babies,

is one of the unique things about IVF is that the embryos are your potential children in your family and you think about them long before they're transferred. And so that is

Lauren (11:53)

Yes.

Megan (11:54)

a different element that you don't have if you're trying naturally.

Lauren (11:59)

It's true. I I don't wanna say, well, I love my child more than someone who conceived naturally or anything like that, but it does really change your perspective on just pregnancy the birth process and conception, and it just really changes your whole mindset. you know, it's great and

A blessing to conceive naturally, I was able to watch him transferred

and watch that on screen. And so from that moment, how special is that

Pauline (12:33)

I mean you knew what he looked like when he was just

cells,

Lauren (12:37)

Yes.

Pauline (12:38)

Lauren, go back for a second. When you and your husband

at the time were

going to the IVF

Lauren (12:44)

Yes.

Pauline (12:44)

clinic and deciding that you were going to do IVF, did you know at the time that your relationship was that there was any sort of rupture or that things were like was there a voice in your head or not a literal voice, but you know.

Lauren (13:06)

yeah, we we really had a very good relationship and we had been dating and living together for like five years before we even got married. So we knew each other a really long time.

we had our normal relationship issues, but I never thought about divorce or that

That was even on the table. And in my mind, being this kind of naive to all of this, that's what happens when people, you know, their children go to college and they have that emptiness syndrome. And that's what happens to people that may be married a period of time and their children are older. I really did not think that that would happen during family planning or

right after, after.

after my son was only about sixteen months.

Pauline (13:59)

So you're going into

IVF like this is it, this is my family.

He and I are building this together. This is we are in this for the long haul.

Lauren (14:07)

Yes.

Pauline (14:08)

Like, how are we growing this family?

Lauren (14:11)

Right. And now as a lot of infertility patients become experts in in this process, so now I'm really, you know, reading up on things and working in the field and really getting experience that I'm already planning for hoping to have more than one embryo, That this is going to be

the way that I grow my family, like more than one child is was the my thought, being optimistic about it.

Megan (14:39)

So typically when someone knows in advance that they want to have multiple children, they will plan for that

in their

treatment with retrievals and try to bank enough embryos so that they can build their family.

Lauren (14:52)

Yes, yes. So we were able to have four

embryos that went to blast, which is the the the stage in the process that we need to have

development and and freeze.

Pauline (15:05)

That's the gold. That's the gold standard there.

Lauren (15:08)

that was the that was the goal. Yeah. so we had four embryos and because I had multiple losses and things like that at that time. Now going back 10 years, which may not be the standard now, we did decide to transfer two embryos. And one became my son.

Pauline (15:25)

for people who might not

know this, right? When you're doing IVF,

the whole procedure in a nutshell is supercharge the ovaries, make a lot of eggs, as many as you can, fertilize them, grow them into embryos, grow as many strong embryos as you can.

Especially if you want to have more children because fertility declines with

Lauren (15:50)

Right.

Pauline (15:51)

age, you're I guess 32, 33 at the time.

Lauren (15:54)

Yeah.

Pauline (15:55)

By the time you get pregnant and do this again, you're gonna be over that,

Lauren (16:00)

Yeah.

Pauline (16:00)

right? You're gonna be older, your eggs won't be as good quality. So there's a lot of like pressure to to make those

embryos now while you are young and

you're

Eggs are great quality.

Lauren (16:18)

Exactly, exactly. And by the time I gave birth, I was thirty-five. So they were already treating me as a geriatric pregnancy at 35, with more scans and things like this and monitoring and all that. and I started trying to conceive

Pauline (16:31)

Yeah.

Lauren (16:32)

at like 30, 31. So here we are, you know, four or five years later. so you're not thinking about that there's all these other factors to consider when you have more than one embryo, multiple embryos.

You know, there's a lot of questions about what to do with the embryos that are now frozen.

Pauline (16:49)

the clinics are thinking about this because they have a lot more experience with this. And so when you're doing IVF, which is different than when you're having sex to get pregnant, The clinics are and their lawyers are very adept at understanding what happens to couples. And so you have to sign forms like

What do you want to do if one of the partners dies? What do you want to do if you're

Lauren (17:14)

Right. Correct.

Pauline (17:15)

divorced? What do you want to do with your embryos? Who can have custody of if you get divorced? So did you get all of the that paperwork and education from the clinic?

Lauren (17:26)

Yeah.

Yeah.

So we sat down with the nurse, we got the paperwork. I think because you're I was at this place of feeling so desperate to get pregnant at this point and have a successful

transfer and pregnancy that I really we signed stuff but it was like a blur and I really didn't focus or hyper focus on that because I think I was just very naive at the time thinking, well

I don't even know if I'm gonna have embryos and if we did if we did get divorced, like we're young, we're you know, you don't think about someone passing away, you don't think about divorce at that time when you're family planning. So we did sign that in the event of a divorce that they would be what we call discarded.

And I didn't I don't think looking back that I understood really what that meant or how emotionally that would feel.

especially once you go through this process, you go through the process and later on for me, they were potential

Pauline (18:35)

Yeah.

Lauren (18:36)

my potential children and Jack's siblings, potential siblings. So I think that's hard for someone to understand if you're not really going through this or understanding the process. So even for me being so naive not having done IVF yet, the round of IVF, but having lost,

I just said, yeah, yeah, you know, like just

not really considering it as much as I should have.

Pauline (19:03)

to be fair, you're going in thinking

your relationship is great, this is never gonna happen.

You're already emotional because you're trying to build your family. And like it's it's it's it's I mean, I

Lauren (19:17)

Yes.

Pauline (19:18)

understand, I think and and I'm sure at this point you understand like why they do that from an outside perspective. But it's like this impossible decision

Lauren (19:28)

yeah.

Pauline (19:28)

to think about like

What I'm gonna do about these hypothetical embryos in this hypothetical situation that's never

actually happened to me. And right now I just want to

Lauren (19:38)

Yeah.

Pauline (19:39)

get pregnant today.

Megan (19:41)

Yeah.

Lauren (19:41)

It's we don't know, right.

Yeah, that's it. Let me sign whatever

I need to sign that's going to get me to where I want to be.

Pauline (19:51)

There's enough things that I have to worry about and obsess about that's happening right

now. Like I can't think about

all of the what if. Sure, sure, sure. Fill out the form.

Lauren (20:00)

Right. And I think I even remember sort of laughing about it, being like young and naive and not not even thinking also about like

God forbid someone has an illness or something and passes away or whatever. You just don't think of those things when you're in your early thirties going through this. Yeah.

Pauline (20:10)

Right. Yeah.

Megan (20:16)

So

Jack is born.

Lauren (20:18)

Jack is born.

Megan (20:19)

You're going through new motherhood, postpartum experience, work.

Lauren (20:27)

yeah, and I definitely had a po a night a postpartum experience. Jack is born we all talk about how beautiful new baby, he's healthy, I gave birth naturally, it was a wonderful delivery was okay, you know, he had some little things, but all in all, everything went well and everyone talks

about all these great things, but then no one's really telling you about

The sleepless nights that he's colic and I am not sleeping at all. And my anxiety is through the roof because I'm not sleeping. And

I'm a first-time mom and I'm thinking, I prayed so hard for this. What did I do?

Pauline (21:08)

and I

just want to point out for anybody who hasn't caught on, you were doing this

perinatal work. You were working with new moms.

People had told you that these things happened.

Lauren (21:19)

Yeah.

Pauline (21:19)

In fact, you told people that these

things happened.

Lauren (21:22)

Right.

Pauline (21:23)

And still when it happened to

you.

Lauren (21:25)

right. I'm this is not gonna happen to me. But you know, cardiologists have heart problems and I really felt a lot of postpartum anxiety

after postpartum. I

did.

Megan (21:35)

was it harder because you were a provider, do you think, to

say this is happening to me or I might need some help

Lauren (21:42)

it was, but then

I kind of was able to really identify what it was. I'm like, okay, this is happening. I'm not going to be in denial about this. I need to go to therapy. I need to, you know, see what's going on. I need to ask for help. Because after about two weeks, my then husband went back to work and I was on maternity leave for, you know, eight to ten weeks. And I was really essentially by myself, because he worked overnights and extra hours and things.

And I just was up all the time, I had family and everything, but they're not so close distance wise and I you know who's sleeping over here, you know, it's like my parents are older, So it was really on me. I have to get myself together here. So I need to ask for help. I and that's what I did,

Pauline (22:26)

You deserve that.

Lauren (22:28)

yeah.

Yeah, but identifying that doesn't feel right and this is not me and identifying the symptoms as as a provider I was able to

Megan (22:37)

Mm.

Lauren (22:38)

and then realize I need to practice what I preach and I really need to

go to therapy for this. And that's what I did.

Pauline (22:45)

Did your husband recognize the difference?

Lauren (22:48)

yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. He definitely recognized that my anxiety

it really was

clinical at this point. It wasn't just

anxiety at this point after a month or so. It was, it was definitely like postpartum anxiety and

maybe a little O C D too thoughts.

Megan (23:07)

And then Jack is sixteen

months old

Lauren (23:10)

So probably after all this is going on, I don't want to say I neglected my relationship, but my primary focus was feeling well, getting back to some level of working, Jack is my main focus.

And that was all that I was like really doing,

Pauline (23:28)

Which we might call survival.

Megan (23:30)

Yeah.

Lauren (23:31)

definitely in survival mode. And that survival mode lasted a long period of time because we were having relationship issues. And then it came to not happy. This is not going to work for me. And I don't want Jack to

see me unhappy and see us arguing or what have you. and so that's what started the whole separation process which was not easy at all.

there were a lot of things to consider.

When you're going through divorce, everything in New York State is, you know, fifty fifty and things like that. So then the discussion of,

Megan (24:11)

Mm.

Lauren (24:12)

you know, not only our home, but our embryos.

Pauline (24:15)

So you gotta figure out custody for your

living child.

And the embryos.

Lauren (24:22)

Right, right. with Jack it was pretty straightforward. we have joint custody.

Jack's home is primarily with me. And a lot of that has to do with Jack's dad's work and his schedule and things like that. He works nights and other things, so it's just sometimes not feasible for Jack to really be with him at times. So Jack, me and Jack are very close. Jack and I are very close. so then the discussion of

The embryos, was like, my god, this is a this is real because his lawyer actually sent a letter to the fertility clinic you know about these embryos and that they agreed to have them discarded and not remain frozen.

Pauline (25:05)

You didn't know that that letter was being sent.

Lauren (25:08)

No, no, no. And when I found that out and I got a copy of it in the mail, it wasn't a discussion, it was just a letter. And I'm like, what is this? What I didn't understand what was going on. I contacted my lawyer and also my fertility doctor, who I became very close with.

there really wasn't much that I could do because legally I did sign that and made that decision. I was still in that survival mode. And I don't think I had the fight in me to pursue it further. because I was just surviving

and, you know, raising

a 16 month old on my own.

and going through a divorce, which was again another thing if you haven't gone through it, you don't really understand what it entails, the paperwork,

Megan (25:56)

The money.

Lauren (25:58)

the discussions, the back and forth,

Pauline (26:00)

The emotions.

Lauren (26:01)

the the home.

Your emotions of it's almost like it is like someone died. You're losing that identity that you had and that person and that whole

Megan (26:12)

Yeah.

Lauren (26:13)

idea

Pauline (26:13)

Yeah.

Lauren (26:14)

of what your you envision for your life is now gone. And now you're going to also say that I cannot keep those

embryos which I felt was a part of me and my son.

and that led to a real devastation. I think that was like the the the top

thing that I I was like now I feel I have nothing. Everything every part of my life that I envisioned is now gone.

Pauline (26:42)

And even

though that's not true, right?

Lauren (26:49)

Right, of course. But that's the feeling in the moment,

Pauline (26:52)

Right. Your logical brain like knows it's not true. Jack is here with you. You're holding him.

But the emotional feeling is like, I've lost

everything.

Lauren (27:02)

In the moment, that's what it felt like.

But the emotional brain.

Yeah.

Megan (27:07)

And of course, like you

spent years of your life working towards this. Dreaming.

Lauren (27:11)

Yes.

Megan (27:13)

Like holding yeah.

Lauren (27:16)

Yeah, yeah. And this is all I've envisioned for myself. however, now in retrospect, it was a turning point for me in every way possible. it is what makes me strong and resilient and and a and a really involved mother and really loving my work, loving being a mother and what turned everything for me around.

Because I also in some way, although it was not replacing the embryos that were lost, I did decide at like thirty-eight, you know what, I'm gonna see if I can freeze eggs because maybe

I want to have a another child with someone, with donor, sperm, with with with whatever, but it's my body and my choice. So that kind of gave me a little bit more back

like this is the beginning of your life. Your

new life.

Pauline (28:12)

So you decided to preserve your fertility?

Lauren (28:17)

yeah, some fertility.

which was a great decision, I think. for me, emotionally also.

Megan (28:22)

Mm-hmm.

Lauren (28:24)

and

Pauline (28:24)

Yeah. So you have frozen eggs.

Lauren (28:26)

I do have frozen eggs, yes, I do. They're not fertilized.

Megan (28:27)

Yeah, I

Pauline (28:28)

And that means they're not fertilized. They're

frozen just as the egg.

Lauren (28:33)

Correct. And we don't know if one day maybe it would turn into an embryo, maybe not, right? they may not be viable. but it it gave me that ability to feel like not everything was taken from me in this process. Right. And

Megan (28:47)

Yeah. It's your autonomy. Yeah. We went to

Pauline (28:50)

Yeah, you have

choice.

Megan (28:51)

a fertility

conference a few months ago and they were speaking about that not not a large percentage of people who freeze their eggs actually use them,

Lauren (29:02)

Use them.

Megan (29:02)

but what that does for them. And it's like giving you this ownership.

Lauren (29:08)

Yes.

Megan (29:09)

And your autonomy and like I can make a choice, the choice is not fully being made for me. Yeah.

Lauren (29:15)

Right.

And this is not the end. This is now a new beginning. it humbled me in a way that I felt so blessed that I had my education and my career in nursing, which I love so much and valued so much, and that was never going to be taken from me.

And that I'm able to help other people, that's not going to be taken from me. But also I'm lucky because there are women that would not be able to leave an unhappy or unhealthy relationship because of finances, because of situations, but that I was able to because I had support and a career and education, but not everyone does. So

There was a lot of mixed feelings going on, right? that I'm blessed and I'm lucky or I'm grateful, but I'm also when I felt down, it's like guilt, like you're not allowed to feel down. there are so many other situations that are people are dealing with. Like you need to get yourself up today, you know, you know, and like go out there. No.

Pauline (30:21)

Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't happen over this kind this

kind of growth that you are showing doesn't happen

Lauren (30:26)

Right.

Pauline (30:26)

overnight.

Lauren (30:27)

Right. This is ten years in the making. I think the important fact too is that one

not everything is what you expect it to be. also the power of like letting things go and focusing on the the present and what that I have this beautiful child. And yes, there were things that were taken and experiences that I won't get back and yada yada. But I could still build on those.

Megan (30:52)

It sounds like a lot of acceptance and you know, you don't have

to like what happened to accept it, but once you can

Lauren (30:57)

Acceptance.

Megan (30:59)

that now what? Yeah.

Lauren (31:01)

E

exactly. Acceptance is big. And I think in the fertility world too, when you're going through this journey, it's very hard to let go of that failed cycle or outcome that this is not what they said was gonna happen. They s they told me I would have fourteen eggs and now I have three or none, you know, and so it's trying to really accept what is,

Yeah.

Pauline (31:27)

think it's a process that we all go through in every scenario because

Lauren (31:32)

Yeah, in every aspect.

Megan (31:33)

Yeah.

Pauline (31:34)

I mean this whole podcast exists because life isn't always what we think it's going to be, right?

Lauren (31:39)

Exactly. Yeah.

And even the good even like the really great parts, which was

the healthy birth and I w before divorce and things like that was still challenging, you know. but accepting what is, reaching out and getting the help that you need so that you're able to live, you know, the life that you that you want to enjoy.

Pauline (31:59)

So when you

think about the that, you know, going back to that first day in the clinic where they're giving you those legal papers, what would you say to somebody listening, which is like the thing that no mom told you about signing those papers?

Lauren (32:15)

I think

Really give yourself a little time there to really, and you're not pressured. Sometimes when you're in these large clinics, it's like, all right, well, let's just get through this process, sign the papers, we want to get moving on to the next step. You don't have to sign them right then and there. You could take them home and sit and really think about it and discuss it and maybe think about it yourself, discuss it with your partner and have that real communication.

The lack of communication I think is where issue in lies.

Megan (32:47)

I

think that's so important because we're not just talking about divorce in those papers. It's what if there was a loss of one of the partners and then what? Like that's a very different experience than

Lauren (32:55)

Right. Yeah. Right.

Megan (33:01)

divorce even and y you know, having a nuanced conversation around it.

Lauren (33:05)

And like we said, infertility is very common. And so we may have friends and other people that have gone through IVF. So you're just like, all right, I'm just signing this, whatever. But also think about, you know, the it the paper also explains side effects, negative outcomes that can happen, and things like that. It's a it's a procedure. You're taking medication, you're going into like a surgical kind of thing. So really, really allow yourself to

think about it and discuss it with your partner.

Pauline (33:36)

I would even say discuss it with your partner. And if you are so fortunate to have a friend

Lauren (33:41)

Yes.

Pauline (33:42)

or a therapist that you can talk to and like because these are big feelings. Like I'm not I don't want

Lauren (33:48)

These are big feelings.

Pauline (33:49)

to think about if I get divorced. I don't want to think about if my partner dies. I don't want to think about if I die.

You know, one of the things they ask you is if one of you dies, can your partner

Lauren (34:02)

Right.

Pauline (34:04)

use the embryo without you? I wanna think about my

Lauren (34:08)

Yeah.

Pauline (34:09)

husband and his future wife carrying my DNA? Like these are big decisions with a lot of emotion.

Lauren (34:12)

My right, right. And I also I think I've yes,

And I think there's a stigma and this like taboo thing because I had a great support system and friends and family. I'm extremely close with my parents, but I felt like if I asked someone, they would look at me like I was out of my mind that I'm a that I'm talking about these types of questions. Especially I'm very close with my mom and dad, but you know, obviously they come from a different generation where IVF was like really not talked about. They would they would be like, What do you mean? You know, so I just

I think again the stigma of it also kept me isolated and and not wanting to share, but I think it's so important that people do reach out, whether it's like you said,

the therapist, a medical professional, a friend, a lawyer.

Pauline (35:04)

You know, at this conference that Megan was talking about, one of the other things that they talked about, which is really

genius and also

practically, I think, probably so hard to explain, is that when you do a retrieval and you get all of the eggs and you're in a relationship, freezing some as eggs and some as embryos.

And that makes so much sense because we don't know what the future holds.

And also

Lauren (35:32)

Yes.

Pauline (35:33)

how do you explain to your partner, like, I want to save some of these without you in case

you're not around?

Megan (35:39)

Like just in case this doesn't work out.

Lauren (35:41)

Right.

that's a really great topic to discuss. And I don't think anyone I mean, no one discussed that with me

as even an option.

Pauline (35:49)

No, and I I think most people don't, and

you know, the point of that presentation in the conference is like we need to just be talking about this as almost like standard of care.

Lauren (35:58)

yes. End the stigma and let's talk about it. Let's put it all out on the table

right?

Megan (36:03)

Men can have their sperm for longer than women

can have produce healthy eggs. Yeah.

Lauren (36:08)

And that's that's the reality

too. So as much as, you know, it is definitely not to knock the men or you know,

Megan (36:16)

Yeah.

Lauren (36:16)

but it is definitely a different experience for the female.

Megan (36:20)

Lauren, this has been really wonderful talking to you. Thank you so much for being generous with yourself and your story and your experience to let others know

that this is a reality sometimes.

Yeah.

Lauren (36:32)

Yeah,

it's my pleasure. I really appreciate you guys having me here.

Pauline (36:36)

And Jack is so lucky to have you as a mom.

Lauren (36:39)

Thank you. That means the world to me.

Pauline (36:43)

And yes, like Megan said, it was a gift to have you here. So thank you.

Lauren (36:47)

Thank you so much for having me.