Pauline (00:02.818)

Hello and welcome back. I'm Pauline Walfisch and I am here with my faithful co-host for another episode for Infertility Awareness Month. So, Megan, would you introduce our guest today?

Megan (00:19.839)

Absolutely. So today we have a guest, Danielle Zuiderer. Zuiderer, excuse me. I'm going to take that again. Today's guest, today's guest is Danielle Zauderer

a licensed clinical social worker based in New York and Massachusetts, certified in perinatal mental health through postpartum support international. Danielle specializes in infertility, reproductive loss, endometriosis, LGBTQIA identity, and brings both clinical expertise and lived experience to her work. She uses an integrative collaborative approach to help her clients move toward the life they envision. Today, she's been generous

enough to step outside of her clinical role, her therapist chair to share her own lived experience with infertility, third party reproduction, and so much more. Danielle, thank you so much. Dani we'll call you Dani, right? Yeah, so Danielle is your bio, Dani is your, okay. So thank you so much for being here and being willing to share your experience with us.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (01:18.903)

Sanny is good, yeah. Danielle if I'm in trouble.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (01:29.923)

Thank you for having me. I'm excited to share it. I know that part of what helped me on my journey was other people sharing theirs.

Pauline (01:38.284)

Yeah, and you have such a cool, like dynamic, rich story to share that so many people don't even realize goes into building families. So it's really great to have you here.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (01:52.803)

Thank you.

Megan (01:57.422)

you realize infertility was going to be part of your story?

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (02:03.298)

Yeah, so I think going into it, my wife and I knew we were going to need some type of help, right? We knew we only had two eggs and two uteruses in this house. Like, we're gonna need some extra assistance. So we're thinking, okay, we're gonna get some donor sperm, get some high quality sperm, do an IUI at the doctor's office. Right time and some good sperm is all you need. Wrong. You know, so.

From the beginning, we knew we were planning on doing an IUI. We thought about the home insemination stuff. ultimately, New York is actually a state where, and this may have changed, so if the internet corrects me, I'm sorry.

Back when we started in 2021, when we were deciding, also deciding who was gonna go first, because we both wanted to carry, we both felt really strongly about carrying, and both felt really strongly about having a genetic component. So our IVF was discussed, ultimately we decided, yes.

Pauline (02:53.054)

Mmm.

So that's, I'm gonna pause you for a second, right? Because that's like a big decision point, right? Most heteronormative couples, so straight couples, don't have to decide which parent is gonna have a genetic connection. But right off the bat, not just thinking about like how and where to get donor sperm, but then you also had to think about whose egg you were using.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (03:01.877)

Mm-hmm.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (03:12.438)

Right?

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (03:22.122)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, so you're thinking about who's egg the sperm something else that comes into play with a lot of same-sex couples We know is something we call uncle daddy Which is when somebody has a brother and then the other partner uses that person's brother's sperm. So uncle daddy you know a Known donor but

Pauline (03:39.414)

So that would be like what we call a known donor, right?

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (03:46.016)

The donor is technically the biological father, but then also happens to be the baby's uncle when it comes to like the f-

Pauline (03:52.14)

to share some genetic with the non-egg donor mom.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (03:58.903)

Yes, so like if one of Alyssa's brothers were to donate sperm and we would use my egg, that would be what we would like refer to as the uncle daddy situation, which for a lot of people, that's a really happy medium for them of someone who's like, I don't really care about using my egg. I don't really care about carrying, but I would love some genetic component. They're able to use their brother's sperm. And then the...

other mom's egg. So something we discussed ultimately decided it wasn't for us because we both wanted to carry and both wanted that direct genetic component. So decided on an unknown donor and decided we would both take turns. So we both have embryos frozen with our egg and the same donor and I care.

Pauline (04:48.502)

How do you decide who goes first? Do do it at the same time? Do you flip and pull? Like what happens?

Megan (04:51.583)

Flip a coin.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (04:53.942)

So this was a big fight in our house. And I always tell people, this is something that I think a lot of people don't talk about because, you know, in a lot of the same way that...

Straight relationships can be very heteronormative in that, okay, well, the man and the woman and you have your roles. A lot of people look at lesbian couples and think, like, oh, you're the more masculine one, you're the more feminine one, you're the wife-wife, right? That's what the joke people make. And so everyone assumed, oh, I'm sure Dani's gonna be the one that wants to carry. And Alyssa felt really strongly. She really wanted to carry, so we actually really, like, really thought a little bit about it. She was like, I'm older. I was like, okay, but it makes more sense for me because I have more flexibility.

job, right? So ultimately the way we ended up actually deciding was Alyssa did not feel ready to take a maternity leave for as long as she would want to when she carries. And ultimately I was in a place where I was in my private practice at the time, I had more flexibility and so we ended up deciding based on logistics but it was not an easy decision to make and our plan now is I have had a

baby I have carried and it was my egg and our plan is in the next coming year Alessa will do the same with the same donor her embryo is ready to go and then if we have a third we will see who has an easier who had an easier pregnancy and that's who carries the yeah we're yeah we started thinking we wanted five kids and that slowly changed we're down to two or three

Megan (06:15.797)

you guys are ambitious if we have the third.

Okay.

Pauline (06:24.782)

Yeah, I thought I was going to have six I have two.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (06:26.986)

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's ambitious.

Megan (06:28.725)

I thought I was going to have to wait. Yeah. So, IUI. That's where you're thinking. That's where you were thinking, right?

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (06:38.368)

Yeah, so we're...

Pauline (06:38.658)

Which, you just, for people who might not know, like, what is IUI?

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (06:45.888)

Yeah, so IUI is not the same as artificial insemination. So artificial insemination could be sperm just going up there, right? That's what you would do at home, like a turkey baster situation. Whereas IUI is they're putting a catheter through your cervix into your uterus and shooting the sperm up there.

And Alyssa actually got to do the first one with the doctor. So that was fun and we were of course convinced we were getting pregnant because everyone tells you don't get pregnant, don't get pregnant, don't get pregnant. So you think, okay, they're putting like really quality sperm up there and they're putting it straight into your uterus at the perfect day, at the perfect time. Like we are so getting pregnant today. Well, we did so not get pregnant that day. We didn't get pregnant many days. So yeah, we did.

Pauline (07:30.828)

Which happens to a lot of people.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (07:33.891)

Right, you get told for so long, don't have sex, you got pregnant. Then you start trying to get pregnant and you're like, this is a lot harder than you guys made it seem in health class. I mean, maybe it would have been easier when I was 17, but you know, right, right. When they first start scaring you, that's when it begins. Yeah, so we did three IUIs. They all failed. Every time we were sure we were gonna get pregnant.

Megan (07:48.277)

or 13, like, you know.

Pauline (07:54.744)

Yeah.

Pauline (08:01.976)

So let me just back up for one second. like you and your wife thought like the only problem that you had was that there was like no penis and sperm available. Okay. So this is like, I some people would like not even consider this infertility, right? It's just like building your family with some third party.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (08:12.574)

Exactly. We're like, okay, obviously we need the sperm. We don't have the oescus.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (08:19.882)

Right.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (08:24.832)

Yeah, and that's what we're thinking going in, right? We're thinking like, all right, we just, there's no penis here, and we're gonna have to buy some sperm and be on our way.

Megan (08:33.621)

Do you have to buy a lot of the same sperm if you're thinking of having multiple children?

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (08:37.482)

yeah, you have to buy it. And that's a really good question. And it's so expensive and so important because a lot of times donors retire. And then...

Pauline (08:38.786)

Such a good question, Megan.

Megan (08:46.686)

Yeah.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (08:47.882)

you're like halfway through your journey, you become very attached to this donor and they're like, there's no vials available. And you're like, what? my God, why didn't I buy more? So they tell you, the sperm mate tells you at first, like buy, if you're planning on having multiple kids, buy five or six. We had friends that bought 12 vials and they, I'm pretty sure they used a lot of them. We ended up buying probably 10 vials in total, which the sperm is expensive too. It's like 1200 a vial or what?

at the time and then you have to pay $2.50 to ship it and you have to you can really only ship one vial at a time because once it leaves the bank you can't return it. So there's a 50 % buyback so you have like incentive to leave it at the sperm bank so that okay if you don't use it at least they'll buy it back versus if you already shipped it to your fertility clinic too bad you're out. we did buy so complicated so many things you're just like never gonna think about.

Pauline (09:41.376)

So complicated.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (09:46.146)

So we bought a lot of our donor sperm.

Pauline (09:50.178)

Yeah. And when you're using donor sperm, so the chances of success with an IUI are smaller than with IVF. But when you have like no other known medical reason, it makes sense, right? It's a least invasive procedure, but it's also can rack up really quickly because you don't have somebody at home just reproducing sperm. You're spending an extra 1200 bucks every time just to use and also like

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (09:56.172)

Yeah. Yeah.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (10:05.184)

Yeah.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (10:11.991)

Yeah.

Pauline (10:20.232)

A vial probably has like, you know, 100 million sperm in it, but you need one to work. So it's like a big expense every time you're doing an IUI financially.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (10:23.4)

lunch.

Yeah? Yeah.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (10:33.342)

Every time. Yes, every time. And you don't know and thankfully in the beginning our insurance at least covered the procedure part of it. But yeah, the sperm is never covered and the shipping is never covered. The shipping is always what killed me. I'm like, really? Like, can't you include that in the vial costs? You guys are killing me over here.

Megan (10:51.285)

It's like having tile shipped to your house. You're like, oh, I'll buy this tile. And it's like $700 to have it shipped. You're like, what?

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (10:56.864)

Yeah, I'm like, I can pick it up.

But then, like, who wants to do your job bad when you pick up the sperm? no thank you. Imagine me just driving with a tank. They have movies about that. So as we're doing the IUIs, our doctor's like, you have PCOS. So we're like, okay. We know that we have something working against us now. There is an infertility piece here, but if I have PCOS, the workaround to that would have been an IUI anyway. So, okay. We have the three failed IUIs.

go to IVF. As soon as we do IVF we realize, oh okay there's also an egg quality issue because I get only five embryos and I'm 30 at the time and only one of them is chromosomally normal after testing. So we're like okay thank goodness.

Pauline (11:42.99)

Okay, so chromosomally normal, that means that like they sent your embryos out for testing and before you even put them back into your body, you know if they're carrying any sort of like genetic malformations or traits or anomalies.

Megan (12:03.613)

that they can test for.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (12:04.416)

Yeah, right.

Yeah, because there's stuff, you know, then they can't test for. And I'm sure since we tested our first batch of embryos, which those are long gone, I'm sure there's better testing now, right? They can test for more. So we did PGTA testing that could that could be a whole other episode, right? Of like, there's also PGTM testing, which is for other conditions. You know, like we have friends who are carriers for certain things that they made sure to test those embryos with PGTM to make sure that their embryos were not

carriers for those things. Thankfully with donor sperm, we knew what I was a carrier for and we picked a donor that was not a carrier for any of the same things. So we didn't have to worry about that. But yeah, so at that point we're like, my doctor's like, good thing we did IVF. You have one euploid chromosomally normal embryo. Let's transfer it. Transfer fails. Okay, now we're back down to zero. We're like four vials of sperm in. We're like five months in. It didn't even tell the part where our first IUI

Pauline (12:57.676)

Yeah.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (13:06.052)

was scheduled, we go to walk out the door and they call and they're like, we're so sorry your IUI was canceled, our clinic is flooded. I was like, okay, this is definitely some bad foreshadowing here. Because we thought we were getting pregnant then, August 2021, that did not happen.

Megan (13:21.257)

Did you have to, did they keep the sperm or did you have to use new sperm? Was that money?

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (13:24.97)

So they hadn't thought it yet, thankfully, but we actually ended up switching donors in between that first canceled IUI and the next IUI that we actually did. And I'm really thankful we did now because we do actually know a bunch of the donor siblings and we have a nice relationship with them. And it's really cool to see our son's genetic siblings like out in the wild. And it's hilarious because they all look like each of us, whoever the caring or genetic parent was, because

some of the couples did do our IVF, but they all look alike too. So there's something about them that all looks like and they are all just like so cute and delicious looking. So I'm actually really glad we ended up switching and it really was just because we had a little more time. Like it was actually very hard for us to pick a donor and I think we were like 70 % a yes on our first donor. Whereas like then when our

IUI got canceled because of the flood, we had to switch clinics because that clinic was going to be closed for a while. And that gave us like a beat to relook at donors and we ended up picking our donor that we have now. So that felt meant to be.

Pauline (14:35.246)

So we could do a whole episode on donor siblings and I love to talk about this, but I know there's other things we wanna get to today. But before we switch, I'm imagining that people are listening and like, what do you mean donor siblings and how do you find them? So like Cliff Notes, what would you say?

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (14:39.944)

Yes, yes.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (14:45.612)

There's a lot of infertility stuff.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (15:00.482)

Cliff Notes. So we all found each other through a Facebook group, California Cryobank. People put in, we had a baby with donor whatever number, won't say our donor number, and all the other moms come in and they're like, we have a baby. we have a son and a daughter. And then for our specific donor, we have a Facebook message between all of us. And it's awesome.

Pauline (15:28.334)

So just like Facebook. Facebook bringing people together.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (15:30.218)

Literally Facebook. And then...

Yeah, and another family recently found us because there's also a forum on California Cryobank. So they were looking for siblings and I was like, come find us on Facebook. So we actually just found another family. Our donor is retired, which I know you would ask that question earlier. So we did run out of our donor sperm and then had to put ourselves in a wait list. And we did get a call one day. We almost were not able to use him anymore. And we were really devastated because at that point, Alyssa already had embryos with him and I had no

embryos left. And so we were like really sad and we put ourselves on a wait list and one day I got a call that a family for some reason had returned their vials of our donor and I was like yes I'll take them all. Like it was the craziest phone call of my life and probably the biggest charge I've ever put on my credit card because I was like I'm not missing out on any more vials like no I need I need to get those right and there were like three vials they returned I was like I'll take them all take them all charge me I don't care please.

Megan (16:30.367)

Yeah, that's all my money.

Pauline (16:30.636)

There's also a donor sibling registry, right?

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (16:34.496)

Yes, that's where we found on the Cryobank's website there's the donor sibling registry. Not everyone reports the pregnancies though. So I think some of the families were just found through Facebook, but some also through the registry. But yeah, so that's the Cliff Notes on that.

Pauline (16:50.87)

And so that's like somebody not is it the cryo bank that maintains that registry or it's some other like organization.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (16:57.922)

I believe it's the cryobank because that's who you report the pregnancy to.

Pauline (17:04.46)

And then people register and then later, if and when you want, you can connect with the other people who have also registered with that donor.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (17:15.458)

Yes, yes. And our donor is what's called an OpenID donor. So at 18, all the kids will get his full name and contact info for him. If parents decide to do it, you know, what we always were learned was that it's very important for him to know where he comes from. And we will very much openly share about his donor leading up to that time and then give him that information when, if and when he wants it. But yeah, so that was, that's like the cliff notes of donor siblings.

And it's a nice thing, but I also think it's necessary in the tri-state area because sometimes you can have a lot of siblings and quite frankly, you have queer families, you're gonna have us.

in certain demographic pockets and you do have for that reason, if you know, we don't have 50 siblings, but some families do, they could meet each other and you don't need an accidental incest situation on your hands. Like is it unlikely? Sure. But could it happen? 100 % and...

Pauline (18:16.064)

It's a small world.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (18:17.63)

It's a small, small world. You don't want to be like, wait, you're my sister. This is not good. I don't need to get a call like that from him one day.

Pauline (18:25.964)

The thing that most people don't have to think about when they're having kids is who they're going to accidentally marry.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (18:32.52)

Yeah. Yeah.

Megan (18:33.469)

Which is so important also to inform your children that they, if it was not a same sex couple, that, you know, by the way, you were conceived using donor gamete. Like that, if they didn't know that and it was just never talked about.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (18:41.024)

Right? Yeah.

Pauline (18:52.386)

Surprise!

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (18:52.79)

Yeah, surprise. so wait, so donor siblings. So, okay, so we were getting to the part of now we realize I have PCOS, but now we also realize I have an egg quality issue, which can be explained by PCOS. But I had had painful periods since I was 12. My first period was excruciating. I could not go to school.

the OBGYN was like, take birth control. that didn't work? the, instead, the prescription one they give you. I don't even remember what it was called, but I do know that it didn't work. I would miss school, be burning myself with a heating pad, excruciating pain. Now I know that's not normal, but growing up, back then, yeah, they were like, you have painful periods? Yeah.

Pauline (19:35.222)

then? Like did people just tell you it was normal?

Megan (19:42.527)

We'll have.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (19:42.647)

that you should not be missing school when you're 12 years old. and really, really heavy periods too. So like, one of my like worst middle school memories is bleeding through my jeans and being like, this can't be normal. Especially like 12, I was kind of on the younger side. Like not a lot of my friends had their period yet. So it was really embarrassing. So now looking back, I'm like, duh, of course. So the real surprise in the story, the real infertility wrench is

I heard this commercial in 2015 that was like, do you ever feel like your uterus is wrapped in barbed wire? You might have endometriosis. And I like heard it in my head for years. And I was like, do I have endometriosis? Like every period I'd be like, do you, is your uterus wrapped in barbed wire? I'm like, yeah, it so is. It is totally wrapped in barbed wire. What is happening? So.

I always had an idea, I brought it up to my fertility doctor and he was like, honestly, it's very probable you're having this egg quality issue. You you have heavy painful periods, that's not normal. He said though, you know, a lot of the times, and this is true, a lot of the times you can get around endo, a lot of the times, not all of the time, with IVF. So we move forward with IVF, we do another round of IVF. So now we're on our second egg retrieval.

was so swollen and so much pain. We were planning on doing a fresh transfer, not testing the embryos first. Just take the eggs out, five days later, pop it back up.

And I was in so much pain my fresh transfer got canceled. I take my wife to her appointment because we're doing stuff in tandem at this point. Not getting pregnant at the same time but like she's getting ready to do a retrieval because she's like wow it's taking her a lot longer than we thought. I want to freeze my embryos now when she was 32 at the time I was 30 or 31. She wanted to freeze her embryos then so I take her to some fertility appointment at our doctor and I joked before we left. Watch she's gonna see me and be like wow you look so good today. Why don't we see if

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (21:43.829)

if you have an embryo ready. We walk into his office, Alyssa does her saline sonogram as like part of her preparation for her retrieval and her stuff. And he's like, you look a lot better. Do you feel better? And I'm like, I feel so much better. He's like, let me go check with the lab. He literally in real time calls the lab. He's like, do we have an embryo for Danielle? And he's like, I have a gorgeous embryo for her. We're like, my God, this is it. The baby's coming, right? We're like so sure we're getting pregnant today. So he's like, you guys go get some coffee or tea, whatever.

We're gonna get everything prepped and you're getting an embryo transfer today. We're like, oh my god, this is crazy. You recall my mom, she's like, this is so crazy. This is so the day you're getting pregnant. Because we're like, this just feels like, that is exactly how my mom talks. She's like, this is it. It's happening today, I know it. So.

Pauline (22:23.936)

Is that how your mom talks? Because that's like a great, great way.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (22:34.004)

I actually do end up getting pregnant. It's my first pregnancy. We're like, my God, we get our phone call about my blood results on Mother's Day that year. I'm like, finally, I'm pregnant. I'm nauseous. I'm sick to my stomach. I'm like, this is amazing. We're like, this has to be it, right? So I graduate from the fertility clinic at eight weeks. I go to my OB and as he's doing the scan and the date is important here is June 1st of 2022.

As he's doing the scan, he does not look, he looks nervous and I'm like, no, and he's measuring and I can see that the baby is not measuring where they're supposed to be measuring. And he's like, I'm sorry, there's no heartbeat.

So this is June 1st, my birthday is June 2nd. He takes me into his office, we call my fertility doctor. Thankfully they have a relationship and my both doctors are wonderful and my fertility doctor gets me in for a DNC the very next day, which is my birthday.

Pauline (23:32.589)

Mmm.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (23:32.875)

So my first pregnancy ends and it's getting to be on my birthday and everyone's texting me, happy birthday, I hope you're having the best day ever. I'm like, yeah, it's really good over here. But I had to just like laugh through it because it was just like, okay, this is happening, this is what's going on. That night we get Chinese food and I have the fortune with me here because it's a very important part of the story. I get a fortune, I'm not kidding. It says, be patient, in time even an egg will walk. I was like.

Pauline (24:04.558)

Why do you not have that framed?

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (24:06.338)

I do, but I brought it from the fridge for the podcast. So it's up on our fridge with a picture of Rowy's embryo, which he now goes, ball, ball. I'm like, not quite. That's actually you. But we can can we can correct that later on. So I'll try to like cut the story, the cliff notes of this. So essentially, at that point, we're like, OK.

Pauline (24:09.238)

Okay.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (24:32.35)

Maybe the embryo was chromosomally abnormal, right? This was an untested embryo. With the DNC, we're able to test the tissue. It is a chromosomally normal embryo. There is nothing wrong with the embryo. That doesn't mean that something didn't develop wrong. So we're still like, okay, could just be bad luck, plus an end quality issue that is explained by PCOS, not necessarily endo. So fast forward. I don't even remember at this point what we did, but.

All in all, we did seven IUIs, six egg retrievals, no, four egg retrievals and six embryo transfers. The last one resulting in just me, yes. So just me, seven IUIs, four egg retrievals and six embryo transfers later, but we do have our son now. And also,

Megan (25:09.301)

This is not for both of you.

Pauline (25:21.923)

And there was some other interventions in there.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (25:27.392)

Yes, so that's what I'm like, let me make sure I get to that. So, in all of that, I have, we switched clinics at some point because the clinic that I had been working with with my doctor that I loved was in the city and I just couldn't get up at five o'clock in the morning anymore and then work all night long. It was like kind of insane that I did that, honestly. Yeah.

Megan (25:45.081)

What people don't know is like the crazy schedule of IVF is like you're the line out the door at six in the morning, right? It's like

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (25:54.007)

Yeah. Yeah, I was getting up at 430 in the morning to be at my 6 a.m. monitoring appointment in the city when we lived on Long Island. It was crazy, but I loved my doctor, so I was like, a minute, like I'm staying, right? The funny part of the story is that when we eventually get pregnant with my son now, our doctor that we had to leave in the city that we were sad to leave, but it was just geographically an issue, moved to a clinic nearby that we then got new insurance and it our last...

Our last retrieval was actually covered by insurance because after my first miscarriage, our insurance was up. That was it. We had maxed out our insurance and for the rest of our fertility treatments for the next year and half or so, it was all out of pocket. So I joke, Rowe is the $100,000 baby. And I would do it all over again, but it was definitely a big expense. So we switched clinics. She's like, the new doctor's like, try IUIs again. I'm like, that's selling good idea, but okay.

So we did two more IUIs, which is how we ended up doing seven IUIs. Then we did two injectable IUIs to add for the seven IUIs. Then at that point, I'm like, listen, I think I have endo. She's like, I can do endosurgery. And this is a big mistake I made, which was thinking she's an IVF specialist at a major institution that everyone has said, go here, go here, they're the best of the best. I'm gonna trust her. She does endosurgery on me and I wanna say January of 2020.

3, January 2023, and she says, oh, I found one small spot and I removed it. And I took one look at my mom. I woke up from surgery and I said, she didn't look good. My mom's like, Dani, I didn't love her either, but I'm sure she looked. I mean, she did surgery on you. I'm like, she didn't. I told my wife, I'm like, she didn't look good. I know it. Like, I have severe endo. I'm positive at this point. Now we've had so many times that I should have been pregnant or stayed pregnant at this point. Like, something's wrong. And I have these excruciating periods, not just that.

GI issues, bladder issues, back pain, leg pain, like excruciating pain all cycle long. And I was just like always chalked it up to other issues.

Pauline (28:03.286)

What was it like a specific type of surgery she did or?

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (28:07.126)

Yeah, so she did a laparoscopic, they just call it like a lap to look, right? But like, yes. Yes, they go in with the camera and she did ablation, which, run if you hear that a surgeon is gonna do ablation on your endometriosis, excision is the gold standard. And I knew that when I had the surgery with her. I had seen that in all the endo groups and I ignored my gut. And so one of my big things, my takeaways is don't ignore your gut.

Pauline (28:12.396)

Okay. So that's like they're not cutting you open. They just like poke some holes and go in with a camera.

Pauline (28:34.296)

Mm-hmm.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (28:36.834)

Like, just because a doctor is an expert in their field doesn't mean they're an expert in your body. Like, I knew I shouldn't do it with her. I knew I should go to an endo expert, not just someone who was an IVF expert. And I did it anyway because my insurance covered it and I was already there for IVF. And it was a big mistake, but any other egg wouldn't have been my son now, so it all worked out how I was supposed to. I tell my mom, my wife, she didn't look good. Everyone thinks I'm nuts. And at this point, I'm starting to think I'm nuts too.

Pauline (29:05.762)

I mean this has been your whole life. You've been saying since you were 12, you said 12 years old, something's wrong.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (29:09.89)

12, 12, right. Something's wrong. So we do two more IUIs after my surgery. We do another egg retrieval. We have another failed embryo transfer. Then we do a double embryo transfer. We put two embryos up. She tells me.

Megan (29:26.581)

Which is pretty rare, a lot of people won't do that, right? Yeah.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (29:29.794)

won't do that. But at this point, they're like, we've been trying to get this girl pregnant since August of 2021. We're in July. No, we were in October of 2023 at that point when we do the double embryo transfer. I get pregnant and I have horrible miscarriage, like extremely painful. And while I'm working.

And you know, I'm at the end of a session thankfully, and I just start getting a little crampy. And then like thankfully my session had ended when I actually started having a miscarriage. like, five minutes difference, I would have been in my next session. So I am so thankful that that didn't happen in the session because how traumatic for literally everyone, right? So.

Pauline (30:12.878)

Yeah, and so often work through miscarriages. It's amazing. I mean, it's not amazing in a good way. It's amazing. Like, this is what women have to do, right? Like, it's this invisible thing that's happening and...

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (30:17.398)

Yeah. Yeah, women just... Right.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (30:26.806)

Yeah, like.

Pauline (30:32.216)

Carry on.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (30:32.47)

Yeah, yeah, it's just like you're expected to do that. mean, even one of the things, one of the big things I talk about when I work with other therapists who are going through infertility is, you know, a lot of the times we're like picking up phone calls about our results or our betas worse, right? You're getting your pregnancy test that you're not pregnant or that your embryos weren't you ployed, like, and then you're just going into your next session. Like you don't have a second. Right, and you can't miss.

Pauline (30:56.118)

Yeah, because don't dare miss that phone call. Because if they call you and you don't answer, it's not until tomorrow you get to talk to somebody.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (31:03.434)

Yes, yes, because they call you when they're closed, technically. make your, for whatever reason, you're the last call of the day. And then if you miss the phone call, forget it. So it's like, as a therapist, what are you supposed to do? You're in session with a patient. sorry, my doctor's calling, right? But at the end of the day, it was like, you end up having to model, yeah, you end up having to model like healthy boundaries for yourself of I'm really sorry, but you know how doctor's offices are. If I don't pick up, I'm never gonna hear from them. But you also take this huge risk picking up this phone call.

Pauline (31:20.91)

The graphics are people too.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (31:33.123)

and not knowing if you're going to get totally dysregulated and you're in with a client. mean, so, you know, I've always been an open book. I didn't share everything with people I was working with, but people did know I was going through fertility treatments because there were times we were at a whim and a 72-hour notice that I would need to cancel sessions. And we had a long journey. You know, it was four years. So my clients that were with me for those four years, they knew, okay, she's having an egg retrieval or there's a transfer today.

And that parts that that could be a whole other episode too, so I won't get distracted

Pauline (32:05.25)

Yeah, and also like I want to get to that the other part, but like I had this moment of like a little bit of like jealousy, right? Because like as a queer couple, like it's just assumed you're used to going through fertility treatments. And like as a straight couple, like nobody assumes that. And so like it's a disclosure that. You didn't have to make.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (32:10.117)

yeah, the big reveal.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (32:34.306)

Hmm.

Pauline (32:34.67)

that other people would. You know what I'm saying? Like, you obviously don't have to disclose it, but also it's less stigmatized, right?

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (32:38.818)

Yeah, 100%. Right?

But it's assumed if we're trying to have a baby, 100%, and as a straight therapist or just in a heterosexual relationship, you're having to disclose you're having an infertility issue, whereas I'm not having to do that because everyone knows me and Alyssa are not making a baby at home unless they missed a class. You know, which someone did say to me, Alyssa, once, looking at both of us, you girls are gonna get pregnant when you least expect it. I was like.

Pauline (33:00.44)

Right.

Megan (33:10.196)

Ha

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (33:12.278)

Do you know how baby is made? Cause I'm pretty sure us girls not gonna get pregnant when we least expect it. I think we'll expect it. I hope so.

Pauline (33:23.022)

And I'm pretty sure neither of you look like the Virgin Mary.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (33:28.194)

No, no, I don't think so. I'm not wearing that outfit. So yeah, I mean, what a journey. So everyone thinks I'm crazy. I think I'm crazy at this point, because I'm like the surgeon who literally looked inside me with cameras, didn't look good. Like, okay, Dani, you're not well, right? But I was right. So I have this miscarriage after this double embryo transfer and me and Alyssa are in the emergency room. And I'm like, Alyssa, I told you.

Megan (33:34.037)

So funny.

Pauline (33:37.398)

Alright, so...

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (33:57.473)

She didn't look good and I have severe endo. My organs are attached to each other. I just know it. I am ravaged with endo inside. So and the big, the hard part about endo is the only way you can see it is laparoscopic surgery. You don't see it when you're doing an egg retrieval. You don't see it during a saline sonogram. For someone like me, well I'm not gonna ruin it. No spoiler alert. But the long story short is Alyssa said, I believe you. I think you do have severe endo and you need to go to an excision expert and we'll pay out of pocket for the surgery because

Quite frankly, at this point, what's another $10,000? Right? Like, and this is our life. She said, Dan, this isn't just about fertility at this point. You're in excruciating pain all cycle round. Like, this is not normal. Because at this point, with all the fertility meds, it was flaring up my endo so bad that I literally felt like my uterus and my entire torso was wrapped in barbed wire. I had shooting pains on my leg.

I was sitting in sessions literally just like ice pack full behind my chair. Like I was in excruciating pain all the time. And GI issues, bladder issues, like you name it. But it was all choked up, chalked up to like, oh you have IBS. So you have an overactive bladder. So I have endosurgery with an endo expert and she also has a urologist, a urology surgeon she works with. They are amazing. He literally held my hand as I went under. My fertility doctor who I got to end up with also held my hand during my scan when

I was bleeding during my pregnancy with Roey, which is a whole other separate piece. Pregnancy after infertility and loss is so hard, but the doctors that got me pregnant and my OB also, who saw me 38 times during my pregnancy, and know that I was only pregnant for 37 weeks and I was at the fertility clinic for eight of those. So he saw me a lot and that doesn't count my labor and delivery visits, which were 12, or the private sonnows. So.

Pauline (35:49.294)

Yeah.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (35:49.451)

Roe was looked at a lot when I was pregnant and I was given a lot of reassurance and I'm really lucky to the team that ultimately gave me my baby. long story short, I come out of surgery, I said what time is it? Because I knew if my, so I have a second surgery with two endo experts. Like endo is what they do all day long, wish I had listened to them in the first place. So because I knew from them when I got the ablation surgery with my IVF doctor, not the doctor that ultimately got me pregnant.

Pauline (36:02.382)

So you had a second surgery.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (36:18.11)

that I should not be getting ablation, that excision is gold standard. So I wake up, I say, what time is it? He says, I think it was 11 something. So I was like, I was in surgery for three and a half hours. He said, you have stage four. It was everywhere. Your organs were attached to each other. And I'm like, I just started crying. Like, I was like, my God, I'm not crazy. and I'm like, wow, she really didn't look.

That was the second thing I thought. Like, how do you miss that? You when I got my pathology report back, there was a four centimeter mass attaching my rectum to some organ. I don't remember what it was. Four centimeters. That's not like you miss that. Four centimeters is like, right? I think that's what four centimeters looks like. That's not like, this is a tiny little spot and I burned it off. Four centimeters? Did she look at all? It started to question if she even did surgery on me.

Like, I'm like, I know I have the incision marks. So they removed everything. They removed every piece of endo. think like there were maybe like 30 biopsies taken and almost all of them were endometriosis. So I had it everywhere, except, and this is the interesting part and why my case was missed for so long, most likely, not in my ovaries or my fallopian tubes. So when people have endometriomas on their ovaries and fallopian tubes, you're gonna see that on a scan and you're possibly gonna pull out

assist during an egg retrieval. And usually, in advanced stage endo, your ovaries are going to be impacted. So the thought was always, yes, I probably had endo, but it wasn't stage three or four, so we can use IVF to work around it. So my case happens to be something that is maybe not as commonly seen, but actually the more and more I spend in endo spaces, the more I find out my story is not so unique.

And there are a lot of women with stage four deep infiltrating endo, multiple organ involvement. I mean, had endometriosis in my ureters. Your next stop is your kidney. Like this isn't just a GYN disease. Like your ureter is literally next, your kidney's next. So that's not good. That has nothing to do with pregnancy. That's just your organs. But so I do, my wife gets a new job. She gets new insurance and our fertility doctor from the city.

Pauline (38:24.546)

No.

Pauline (38:32.514)

Yeah.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (38:41.386)

moves to the local clinic that is where we have our insurance through. And I do, I wait three months after my endosurgery with excision specialists, which is what I should have done all along. But I know why. There were tons of reasons to wait and I do an egg retrieval. I do a fresh transfer. We don't test the embryo. And the result is my 17 month old son. So we have a happy ending.

Pauline (39:07.598)

But whew, did you work for that?

Megan (39:11.124)

Yeah.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (39:11.522)

Yeah, I know, I'm sweating telling the story.

Megan (39:14.695)

It's four years of like four years before, right? That everything is focused on that.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (39:20.994)

Four years, yeah.

Pauline (39:21.422)

How can you tell this story like so, I know you said like you're sweating, is it from like the exercise or the emotional experience?

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (39:30.29)

Always. I think it's the hormones. I still think my hormones are like all out of whack, honestly. But also it's very possible that my son woke up and my wife turned the heat on because he likes it to be a toasty 75 degrees and it kind of feels like she did that. So I think that's actually probably why I'm sweating. But...

Pauline (39:45.294)

Yeah, so this was the question I was going to ask. How can you tell this story without getting emotional? Like you've told it to so beautifully.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (39:58.083)

You know what? I had to. Like, I had to be able to do this to get to the point I'm at. I couldn't, like, stop go, right? I had to just keep moving. And the whole time, that's what I just kept doing. I just kept moving. I was like, next round, next round, next round. And like I said, I had to laugh because, I mean, come on, who gets a DNC on their birthday after their first pregnancy? Like, it's like funny at a certain point. You're like, where is Ashton Kutcher? Like,

Megan (40:26.069)

It's like the woods keeping them out.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (40:26.082)

Come out and punk me already, I'm done. And I credit my ability to do that as to how I didn't give up because I look back and I'm like, it's kind of insane that I wasn't just like, hey, Alyssa, you wanna get pregnant too, I'm out.

Megan (40:43.475)

What's gonna be my next question? Like at some point where you like, can we just switch? Like this is not, yeah.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (40:46.498)

Yeah.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (40:51.158)

I mean, so many people asked us that, and for me, I was just, Herman, I, and for me, I was like, I can't let this be my story. And honestly, I know myself. As much as I'm able to laugh when I tell this story, I would have been so, so, so jealous of Alyssa to see her have the pregnancy that I wanted to have so badly, and it would have destroyed me. Like, this didn't. It broke me down, and it was really hard.

Pauline (40:53.42)

She was determined it sounded like.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (41:21.164)

But it didn't totally wreck me from the inside out the way it would have wrecked me and I really believe our marriage had we just like switched. I just, I don't think we would have survived that. And I think that's a thing that's really stigmatized too of like, well, why does it matter, right? It's gonna be your baby anyway. But at the end of the day, I said to her, Alyssa, I can't let my only pregnancy be one where my baby died inside of me. Like, I just can't have that be my story.

I need to follow through with this. That's who I am as a person. Like I am stubborn to a fault, but I say my stubbornness is what got me my Rowy and he's literally like sunshine in human form. I mean, he's the most delicious, happiest, like I would do it all over again for him.

Pauline (42:08.482)

Well, we could talk to you for hours, but we're out of time. So what let's let's end with the what no mom told you. Right. So if if if there was a sentence that you could use to sum up this experience that you would want other people to know, what would you say?

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (42:10.988)

Yes, and I could talk for hours.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (42:19.543)

Yeah.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (42:29.27)

Just because a doctor is an expert in their field doesn't mean they're the expert in your care. I wish I had known that from the beginning. Like I said, I would do it all over again because this egg was my son. But I really wish I had trusted my gut and I really encourage other women to do that. You know, a lot of people said like, this is the best of the best institution. But quite frankly, the best of the best institution is where she completely missed my endo. And...

At the end of the day, it's your life. Your doctor's gonna go home to their family, ask questions, push. If you find them getting agitated with you, find a new doctor. Because at the end of the day, we need to be able to listen to women. And if your doctor can't take some questions, you don't want them. That's not who you want to be your doctor. So I think that is my big takeaway is.

Pauline (43:19.854)

So speak up.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (43:21.314)

Speak up, just because someone's an expert in their field doesn't mean they're the expert in your body. You're the expert in your body. And find someone who believes that. I said it.

Pauline (43:26.626)

There. And there, you said it. There it is. You said it. Thank you. It has been such a pleasure being here with you today. And I'm sure that Megan is going to write to me later and say, we have to have her back and do another episode.

Megan (43:43.253)

I know so many things to talk about. I'm like I still have four more questions in my head right now. So really I'm so happy you have your son and that you push through it and worked so hard for that. And yeah.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (43:46.742)

Yeah. I'd love to come back. I'm always happy to be a repeat guest.

Pauline (43:54.018)

Yeah, well.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (43:57.026)

Thank you.

Pauline (44:00.728)

Yeah, go give him a big hug from us too.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (44:00.876)

Thank you. I'm going to. Thank you guys so much for having me. This was really fun, and I'm really happy to be able to share my story.

Megan (44:08.927)

Thank you.

Pauline (44:09.186)

Yeah, and I know it will help somebody listening, so thank you.

Dani Zauderer, LCSW, PMH-C (44:12.416)

I really hope so. Thank you guys so much. I'll see you soon. Bye.

Pauline (44:15.394)

We'll see you soon.